Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Mirror Image]

I found the 4th and 6th symphonies much more accessible than his other symphonies, at first, but that's because I like dark, turbulent, music in general. But then again, Variations of a Theme by Tallis is my favorite piece of all time, so... 

I never found the 4th and 6th symphonies inaccessible. In fact, I don't find any of RVW's symphonies inaccessible. I like them all for different reasons.

By the way, I can't say I'm a big fan of Mennin, I prefer his rival Schuman. I think Mennin was just a jealous, bitter person.

[Elnimio]

Schuman's music mostly bores me to tears with its Academicism. Mennin had much more passion and fire in his writing. His piano concerto is unlike anything an American has ever composed.

[Mirror Image]

Schuman's music mostly bores me to tears...

That's funny, because that's how I feel about Mennin's music. Mennin doesn't hold a candle to the power of Schuman's music. Mennin will be remembered for one thing: being a jealous jerk.

[Elnimio]

...If you say so.

[Karl Henning]

. . . Mennin will be remembered for one thing: being a jealous jerk.

Ah, heard both sides of the story, have you?

BTW, your post is not only presumptuous, but horrendously off topic. (Just saying.)

[raduneo]

But isn't it true that it's invariably hard to understand why others struggle with what we find easy? As Solzhenitsin's Ivan Denisovitch says: 'How can a man who's warm understand a man who's cold?' I've been listening to RVW for decades, but still can't enjoy the 4th and 6th. The sheer bleakness of them leaves me feeling low-spirited. On the other hand the poetry of Ted Hughes can also be bleak, but it leaves me buoyant and energised. There's no accounting for these personal contradictions as far as I can see.

That is a beautiful quote! You do have a point. It's just that sometimes the line between not liking and not understanding is not very clear. I say this because it happened to me many times. For example, I used to completely dislike Shostakovich, Bartok, Brahms and Mozart for the logest time - and I had made great efforts to try and get into their music, but it wasn't working in the least. Then somehow it clicked all of a sudden (not at the same time for all of them). I now love them (the first three actually make it to my top 10 composers list).

I'm not saying this is the case with you and these symphonies!! I am not you, so I could never assume anything.

When I hear the 4th, I also hear elements of exagerated militarism - perhaps even parody, energy and a bit of mistery. (only the Bernstein recording clicks for me: I find that it never drags and has a sense of vitality that I like.)

His 6th symphony has a very mysterious and mystical air, in the likes of the Schubert Unfinished.

But as Mirror Image suggests, maybe these don't need to be associated to war to be enjoyed.

I was saying I find them dissoant COMPARED to some other dissonant modern symphonies. Simpson's symphonies I find SO dissonant to the point there is practically no human element left, and it (literally) leaves me cold (but I hear that is part of the intention). Xenakis can get extremely dissonant quite often also.

You are right though, in the end each person has different tastes! What would the world be if everyone liked all the same things?

[raduneo]

What's interesting and perhaps of important note is the composer himself said there was no program in either symphony. In fact, in the documentary O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Vaughan Williams one commentator points out that the frustrations he was feeling from his first marriage resulted in the turbulent feelings expressed in his 4th symphony.

As for the 6th, when questioned about if there was a possibility that the theme of the work dealt with WWII, RVW replied "Can't a man just write a piece of music?"

By the way, I know there are plenty of dissonant symphonies in the 20th Century, this is, after all, my favorite period of music, but my point is these works, for RVW, were aggressive and bitter in complete contrast with a lot of his other works, which don't express these kinds of feelings at all.

I believe it is my favorite period of music as well. I seem to gravitate towards it!

Indeed, perhaps they don't need to be viewed as "War Symphonies" to be enjoyed. I had an easier time getting into Shostakovich without thinking so much about the program.

I wouln't say they are in complete contrast with his other works. I hear the sense of danger and menace in the 3rd smphony already! It's subdued and not as overt, but there is definitely something unsettling under the surface. It's not all glorious green pastures. Perhaps the 4th symphony just shows what was hiding underneath!

I hear some dissonance in the 5th symphony too (I have to relisten to it to confirm the accuracy of this statment!). Where I really hear some dissonance is in the 7th Symphony! The vastness, coldness, and majestic (yet dangerous) beauty of the Antarctic: full of light, yet devoid of warmth: there is definitely some dissonance there, of a different kind perhaps.

I can't comment on the 8th or 9th, I barely know these (and don't really know of any good recordings for them).

[Sergeant Rock]

I can't comment on the 8th or 9th, I barely know these (and don't really know of any good recordings for them).

8 - Haitink
     Barbirolli (Dutton)
     Handley
     Thomson

9 - Haitink
     Bakels
     Thomson
     Boult


Sarge

[Karl Henning]

(* pleased to reflect that he has three of each of those singled out by the Sarge for praise *)

[not edward]

Mennin will be remembered for one thing: being a jealous jerk.

With Peter Mennin, it was so obvious that [what Bill did] was very aggressive and probably inappropriate. I'm sure I could have had that reinforced even further—perhaps by Mrs. Mennin, because Mr. Mennin is no longer with us, of course—but it was clearly an overstepping of bounds, and that's the way I try to present it in the book.

(From a not uninteresting interview at http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/A-Conversation-with-Joseph-W-Polisi-Author-of-American-Muse/)

[Mirror Image]

I can't comment on the 8th or 9th, I barely know these (and don't really know of any good recordings for them).

Sarge suggested some good recordings but for the 8th and 9th Thomson gets my vote all around. Do you own Bryden Thomson's cycle? It's the finest set of RVW symphonies I own.

[Christo]

Sarge suggested some good recordings but for the 8th and 9th Thomson gets my vote all around. Do you own Bryden Thomson's cycle? It's the finest set of RVW symphonies I own.

Completely agreed and also my first choice for the Eight and Ninth. No other conductor brings out the brute power of the Andante of the Ninth like Thomson.

[Mirror Image]

Completely agreed and also my first choice for the Eight and Ninth. No other conductor brings out the brute power of the Andante of the Ninth like Thomson.

It's rather amusing that I avoided Bryden Thomson's set for a long time, but, when I finally bought it, I listened to the 5th and instantly thought "Okay, now why did I put off buying this set for so long?" It's an expensive set no doubt. I've never seen it less than $45, but it's worth every penny.

[Elgarian]

For example, I used to completely dislike Shostakovich, Bartok, Brahms and Mozart for the logest time - and I had made great efforts to try and get into their music, but it wasn't working in the least. Then somehow it clicked all of a sudden (not at the same time for all of them). I now love them (the first three actually make it to my top 10 composers list).

Oh yes, yes. Exactly. The interesting thing is that when an earlier dislike is transformed into love, I can no longer understand my own previous dislike! For example, I simply cannot understand how, 10 years ago, I found Mozart trivial and uninteresting. I know I did. I wish I hadn't. But there it is, and hindsight leaves me completely baffled.

It is perfectly possible that at some point I'll make the same sort of breakthrough into the RVW symphonies I don't enjoy at present. We change all the time. For now though, I'm stuck pottering mainly among the cowpats of 3 and 5 and the taxicabs of 2.

[Elgarian]

I hear the sense of danger and menace in the 3rd symphony already! It's subdued and not as overt, but there is definitely something unsettling under the surface. It's not all glorious green pastures. Perhaps the 4th symphony just shows what was hiding underneath!

Oh yes indeed. I pick up a tremendous feeling of sadness and loss pervading the 3rd symphony: a kind of 'these green fields can never be the same again' feeling. I can handle that, it seems, whereas the sound of the 4th actually upsets me, and I just want to switch it off. But of course there's loads of art of all kinds that presses our personal buttons unpleasantly, and we all have to weave our own different paths through the minefield!

[cilgwyn]

Not too mad on the fourth symphony, myself,quite frankly! My loss,I know!
My favourites incidentally,are probably the fifth,eighth & ninth!

[Mirror Image]

Not too mad on the fourth symphony, myself,quite frankly! My loss,I know!
My favourites incidentally,are probably the fifth,eighth & ninth!

Have you heard Bernstein's performance of the 4th? Sarge turned me onto that performance and all I have say is wow.

[Karl Henning]

Oh yes indeed. I pick up a tremendous feeling of sadness and loss pervading the 3rd symphony: a kind of 'these green fields can never be the same again' feeling.

(Can't help myself . . . .)

Always look on the bright side of life! . . .

[not edward]

Oh yes indeed. I pick up a tremendous feeling of sadness and loss pervading the 3rd symphony: a kind of 'these green fields can never be the same again' feeling. I can handle that, it seems, whereas the sound of the 4th actually upsets me, and I just want to switch it off. But of course there's loads of art of all kinds that presses our personal buttons unpleasantly, and we all have to weave our own different paths through the minefield!

In some ways I think of the 3rd as far darker than the 4th; the violence and dark qualities of the 4th and 6th are very up-front whereas in the 3rd everything is tinged with the unsettling darkness under the surface. There's nothing of the active defiance of the darker emotions that the 4th and (to some extent) 6th have, just a very bleak undercurrent that never goes away.

[cilgwyn]

Have you heard Bernstein's performance of the 4th? Sarge turned me onto that performance and all I have say is wow.

Sounds very interesting,Mirror Image! I'm going to have to make a note of that.