Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Biffo]

Laboured and slow in the 9th is what appeals to me.  I look forward to listening later today.

Is there any (non-live, stereo) recording of the Antartica where the organ was not recorded separately?

(Incidentally belated congratulations to the RVW thread on reaching 200 pages  - even if some of them were mostly Bax, Moeran, Elgar, Britten ...

This is not easy to determine, several mention a separate organ but others - Boult, Previn, Haitink - give no recording venue details at all.

Davis/BBCSO  was recorded in St Augustine's Church, London and no overdub is mentioned. Oddly, Job from the same set was recorded in the same venue but an organ overdub (King's College Cambridge Chapel) is specified. Davis Bergen PO just says recorded in Grieghallen, Bergen, no mention of an overdub.

[aukhawk]

There's a facebook group dedicated to RVW and in the last couple of days this new Manze recording (which I have NOT heard) has been discussed and the general opinion seems to have been strongly negative - laboured and slow being the consensus especially in No.9.

(NB - of the 9th only, I haven't listened to the Antartica) - it is (for me) completely satisfying and convincing, from first to last. 
The first movement at this pace could easily be a simple continuation of the Antartica (that is, a continuation of one of my favourite VW symphonies).  So much so that it's maybe unfortunate to juxtapose these two symphonies on the same disc - or maybe that was deliberate, I dunno.  The 2nd movement here is elegaic, strongly redolent of the 5th symphony.  The 3rd and 4th movements I do feel show the 84-year-old composer running out of steam - as such they are very poignant but I don't think the music is VW's best though the last movement starts well enough, similar to the finale of the 6th - in this performance they seem very much all of a piece with the first two movements, only right towards the end of the last movement did I feel the music was overstaying its welcome - but then as I listened I remembered how the 85-year-old heard this in performance for the first time, and died fairly peacefully a few weeks later.
The recording has a delicate, transparent sort of feel but unusual orchestral sonorities are not highlighted as much as they could be - the saxophones for example are quite recessed in the mix and seem just reduced to 'any old generic woodwind' - likewise a couple of gong-like effects are very subtly presented - though I was only listening on headphones so will reserve judgment on all that.

Previously I have known this symphony via Previn (on vinyl) and subsequently Boult, then Haitink.  None of these have made me want to listen again and consequently the 9th has long ago been dropped from my personal listening repertoire.  This recording should change that.

[Biffo]

(of the 9th only, I haven't listened to the Antartica) - it is (for me) completely satisfying and convincing, from first to last. 
The first movement at this pace could easily be a simple continuation of the Antartica (that is, a continuation of one of my favourite VW symphonies).  So much so that it's maybe unfortunate to juxtapose these two symphonies on the same disc - or maybe that was deliberate, I dunno.  The 2nd movement here is elegaic, strongly redolent of the 5th symphony.  The 3rd and 4th movements I do feel show the 84-year-old composer running out of steam - as such they are very poignant but I don't think the music is VW's best though the last movement starts well enough, similar to the finale of the 6th - in this performance they seem very much all of a piece with the first two movements, only right towards the end of the last movement did I feel the music was overstaying its welcome - but then as I listened I remembered how the 85-year-old heard this in performance for the first time, and died fairly peacefully a few weeks later.
The recording has a delicate, transparent sort of feel but unusual orchestral sonorities are not highlighted as much as they could be - the saxophones for example are quite recessed in the mix and seem just reduced to 'any old generic woodwind' - likewise a couple of gong-like effects are very subtly presented - though I was only listening on headphones so will reserve judgment on all that.


Previously I have known this symphony via Previn (on vinyl) and subsequently Boult, then Haitink.  None of these have made me want to listen again and consequently the 9th has long ago been dropped from my personal listening repertoire.  This recording will change all that.

Yes, but nowhere near as slowly as this - Sargent took only 31 mins. However, this is your own personal choice.

[aukhawk]

Yes, I freely admit to being strongly predisposed to 'slow is good' - in almost any music.

[Biffo]

While still in a critical mood I decided to revisit the fairly recent recording of Symphony No 6 from Elder and the Halle. This time I enjoyed it a lot more - not quite sure why I took against it before. Possibly because I listened to No 4 on the disc first and that was a disappointment. Sonically, this is one of the best No 6s I have heard.

Will now have to give No 4 another try but not today.

[Biffo]

According to the Warner box-set booklet, the Haitink was recorded in Abbey Road No.1 (no organ there AFAIK?).  Of others where I have notes, Leppard gives no venue (but presumably Indianapos Symphony Hall or some such), Thomson was recorded in St Jude's Church - however of all recordings I've heard, the organ in the Thomson is the least believable in terms of an integrated sound - it just sounds 'off-stage' (shame as this recording is otherwise top-notch).  The Boult (stereo recording) I think I remember reading at time of release and first reviews, that the organ was recorded separately (though probably at the same venue, Walthamstow - I'm guessing now) - I remember that because it was radical, at that time.
I only have booklets, not the back-sleeve pages where extra recording info is sometimes buried.

I dug out the original LP of the Boult (1970) release and it has no technical information whatever. Slatkin is another with a dubbed organ (Westminster Central Hall). Barbirolli (1954) is a real oddity. The symphony was recorded in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, venue for the premiere so presumably has an organ. The organ part was recorded separately - in No 1 Studio, Abbey Road.

Earlier, I listened to Davis/Bergen PO. The organ does sound natural but slightly tame, not enough of the Abominable Dr Phibes; a shame as the orchestral sound is spectacular.

[Mirror Image]

Good to see so much activity on this thread. RVW, for me, remains the quintessential English composer. His music not only conjures up images of those rolling pastures and hillsides, but also the hardships the country has endured and the kind humanity that make up its people. He seemed to always stand on the principle that people were important to his music and without them, he wouldn't be able to compose in the manner he does. Of course, I'm paraphrasing here. I believe this to be certainly true given how he loved to collect folk music --- he had his finger on the pulse of rural English life, but also life in the city.

[Mirror Image]

I'm really looking forward to the next installment to Brabbins' series on Hyperion. That is, if he continues, which I hope he does. He has given two excellent performances of A Sea Symphony and A London Symphony.

[aukhawk]

Good to see so much activity on this thread. RVW, for me, remains the quintessential English composer. His music not only conjures up images of those rolling pastures and hillsides, but also the hardships the country has endured and the kind humanity that make up its people.

I was reading only today** that late in life VW was a passionate internationalist - that is, he used his public profile to campaign tirelessly for a united Europe and ultimately for a World Federation.  Alongside this, he said that of course it was important for nations to retain their individual identities, but that they should do this through their art and culture.

** in The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams by Micheal Kennedy

[aukhawk]

Barbirolli (1954) is a real oddity. The symphony was recorded in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, venue for the premiere so presumably has an organ. The organ part was recorded separately - in No 1 Studio, Abbey Road.

Oh - ha!  Well I certainly don't remember hearing an organ on Sgt Pepper 

Free Trade Hall - well I don't remember seeing an organ there (the Hall no longer exists of course, it's a chain hotel now - but I attended a couple of concerts there in the early '80s) and Googling, maybe this is why I didn't see the organ:



Googling again, Abbey Road had a similar theatre organ rescued from a cinema in Birmingham, but that's all that I can see.

Who's missing now?  Handley?  Bakels anyone?  Elder is live I assume.

[Sergeant Rock]

Who's missing now?  Handley?  Bakels anyone?  Elder is live I assume.

The Bakels' CD doesn't mention the organ, only the organist and the recording location: Wessex Hall, Poole Arts Center, Poole, Dorset.

Sarge

[vandermolen]

I dug out the original LP of the Boult (1970) release and it has no technical information whatever. Slatkin is another with a dubbed organ (Westminster Central Hall). Barbirolli (1954) is a real oddity. The symphony was recorded in the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, venue for the premiere so presumably has an organ. The organ part was recorded separately - in No 1 Studio, Abbey Road.

Earlier, I listened to Davis/Bergen PO. The organ does sound natural but slightly tame, not enough of the Abominable Dr Phibes; a shame as the orchestral sound is spectacular.

For the best 'Dr Phibes' effect you should listen to the Rozhdestvensky recording where the organ goes haywire at one point.

[vandermolen]

(NB - of the 9th only, I haven't listened to the Antartica) - it is (for me) completely satisfying and convincing, from first to last. 
The first movement at this pace could easily be a simple continuation of the Antartica (that is, a continuation of one of my favourite VW symphonies).  So much so that it's maybe unfortunate to juxtapose these two symphonies on the same disc - or maybe that was deliberate, I dunno.  The 2nd movement here is elegaic, strongly redolent of the 5th symphony.  The 3rd and 4th movements I do feel show the 84-year-old composer running out of steam - as such they are very poignant but I don't think the music is VW's best though the last movement starts well enough, similar to the finale of the 6th - in this performance they seem very much all of a piece with the first two movements, only right towards the end of the last movement did I feel the music was overstaying its welcome - but then as I listened I remembered how the 85-year-old heard this in performance for the first time, and died fairly peacefully a few weeks later.
The recording has a delicate, transparent sort of feel but unusual orchestral sonorities are not highlighted as much as they could be - the saxophones for example are quite recessed in the mix and seem just reduced to 'any old generic woodwind' - likewise a couple of gong-like effects are very subtly presented - though I was only listening on headphones so will reserve judgment on all that.

Previously I have known this symphony via Previn (on vinyl) and subsequently Boult, then Haitink.  None of these have made me want to listen again and consequently the 9th has long ago been dropped from my personal listening repertoire.  This recording should change that.

Interesting review. I've always thought highly of the Ninth Symphony, although I think that the outer movements are the best ones. I find that the work, as a whole, has a craggy, monolithic quality which is very appealing and I find those massive, looming chords at the end, followed by the harps, very moving.

[calyptorhynchus]

Talking of organs going haywire I remember some sleeve notes from a Supraphon recording of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass where there was a reference to the "ravenous organ solo" in the postlude movement. 

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Talking of organs going haywire I remember some sleeve notes from a Supraphon recording of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass where there was a reference to the "ravenous organ solo" in the postlude movement. 

What does it mean for an organ to be hungry? 

[Biffo]

The Bakels' CD doesn't mention the organ, only the organist and the recording location: Wessex Hall, Poole Arts Center, Poole, Dorset.

Sarge

Handley's Antartica was recorded in the Philharmonic Hall, Liverpool and the organ in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral.

Poole Arts Centre has, for some unfathomable reason, been rebranded as The Lighthouse and the concert hall no longer has a separate name.

The Wessex Hall did not have a permanent organ. An electronic one with a couple of stacks of speakers was used when an organ was required.

[aukhawk]

Carlo Curley at the keys? 

Curley used a substantial Allen touring organ where the venue lacked an instrument of sufficient scope to support his repertoire. He recorded commercially for various labels such as RCA, ProArte, Rediffusion and Decca International. He participated in several 'Battle of the Organs' concerts, and his final such concert was in June 2012 at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral with his friend Ian Tracey using a Copeman Hart instrument.

I now have Handley in the post having seen a copy for less than £1.

Interesting review. I've always thought highly of the Ninth Symphony, although I think that the outer movements are the best ones. I find that the work, as a whole, has a craggy, monolithic quality which is very appealing and I find those massive, looming chords at the end, followed by the harps, very moving.

I must admit I don't have much patience with orchestral codas in general.  They probably work better in the concert hall than in the intimacy of the home listening environment where I just find the obviousness of it all a bit cringeworthy.  (Talking in general here, not VW 9 specifically.)  Charles Ives found the perfect solution at the end of his 2nd Symphony.

Out of curiosity just sampled via Spotify a bit of the "Landscape" movement.... is the organ dubbed from the Anglican cathedral - it sounds like that organ and has a different acoustic around it......?  Quite liked the weighty epic feel though actually!

Yes I've now listened to 'Landscape' (only).  That certainly sounds like a Big Beast (and one feels that VW must have had some Willis-type monster in mind when he wrote this).  The pedal note underpinning is a bit overcooked compared with other recordings I've heard - though quite visceral in effect.  Those pipes must be slow to speak which is one reason why recording separately is an advantage - timings adjusted in post.  The climax sounds like a good 'natural' balance to me (though what do I know, I've never experienced an orchestra and organ playing simultaneously in real life).  During the climax the second orchestral swell sounds extraordinary - a weird stuttering effect that I've never noticed before - I had to rewind and play that bit again to check my old ears weren't playing tricks.

Now, who else?  James Judd?  Martin Yates?

[Roasted Swan]

I must admit I don't have much patience with orchestral codas in general.

What!!  Dissing Orchestral Codas [Epilogues]!!!! Never - glorious things  ..... RVW London Symphony / Bax 7 / Rach 1 & 3 / Bruckner 9 (if you count the Adagio as an ending.....)  Just for starters!

[vandermolen]

Good to see so much activity on this thread. RVW, for me, remains the quintessential English composer. His music not only conjures up images of those rolling pastures and hillsides, but also the hardships the country has endured and the kind humanity that make up its people. He seemed to always stand on the principle that people were important to his music and without them, he wouldn't be able to compose in the manner he does. Of course, I'm paraphrasing here. I believe this to be certainly true given how he loved to collect folk music --- he had his finger on the pulse of rural English life, but also life in the city.

A very thoughtful analysis John and nice to read as a humane corrective in our current era of intolerance and confrontation.

[vandermolen]

What!!  Dissing Orchestral Codas [Epilogues]!!!! Never - glorious things  ..... RVW London Symphony / Bax 7 / Rach 1 & 3 / Bruckner 9 (if you count the Adagio as an ending.....)  Just for starters!

All those are terrific endings IMO. Rachmaninov's first conveys a sense of looming catastrophe ( something I always relate to  ) throughout and then it finally plunges headlong into the abyss in the coda. Marvellous - I love that ending.