Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Karl Henning]

I can't think of another composer who wrote as gorgeous music for strings as RVW: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Partita for Double String Orchestra, Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus', Concerto Grosso, among others.

There is a reason why I name-checked RVW in this review.

[relm1]

I can't think of another composer who wrote as gorgeous music for strings as RVW: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Partita for Double String Orchestra, Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus', Concerto Grosso, among others.

He has a unique sound with the strings that is immediately identifiable as RVW which I too adore. 

[Mirror Image]

There is a reason why I name-checked RVW in this review.

Yes, indeed.

He has a unique sound with the strings that is immediately identifiable as RVW which I too adore. 

Great to read, relm1.

[vandermolen]

Review of the new Manze CD of symphonies 7 'Antartica' and 9:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/VW_sys79_4190.htm

[aukhawk]

The superscriptions oh dear, here we go again.  The reviewer should be aware that there is at least one more recording of the Antartica that features them, besides the three he pillories - that by Raymond Leppard and the Indianapolis SO.  On second thoughts, perhaps he should be left in ignorance, since the Leppard recording features extended spoken texts, that overlap the music on more than one occasion (not just once as with Manze) and at one point spoken text is even interpolated mid-movement.  Given his rather over-the-top response to the lightly-delivered contributions to the Manze recording Mr Quinn would probably have a seizure if he listened to Leppard.

Really, I don't think anyone should let this be a deal-breaker either way, whatever recording they choose - the superscripts are brief episodes, gone in no time, and in the case here of Timothy West delivered disarmingly, without any sense of portent or knighted self-aggrandisment.  The performance and recording are as the reviewer says, otherwise top-notch - although I find the general recording quality a bit unusual - it is remarkably detailed to be sure, but at the same time slightly recessed, veiled, perhaps you could say 'analogue' in its overall presentation.  Maybe this is the modern state of the art, I dunno. It may just be an impression because overall it is 'cut' at a lowish level, to allow space for the eventual huge climax.

[Mirror Image]

Review of the new Manze CD of symphonies 7 'Antartica' and 9:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/VW_sys79_4190.htm

I'll be skipping Manze's Antartica just as I skipped all the rest of his RVW recordings except for the first-one. In fact, I wrote a review of his recording of A London Symphony and Symphony No. 8:

Andrew Manze has been slowly establishing himself as a conductor of more later music (i. e. 20th Century) as he comes from an early music background. He has performed Vaughan Williams many times (incl. a concert of "Symphonies Nos. 4-6" at the BBC Proms if I remember correctly). This recording (on Onyx) is the first in a projected cycle of Vaughan Williams' symphonies. Upon listening to this recording twice now, my reaction to the music-making is rather underwhelming in general. I think Manze has a good understanding of the music and how to make it flow, but what I'm missing is a more dramatic narrative than what's on display here. Of course, Manze has some stiff competition in both of these symphonies (and all the rest once they're released). How does Manze stack up against my favorites like Boult, Thomson, Previn, and Handley? He doesn't. It's that simple. The climaxes aren't too impressive and, while I did mention the positive of the music flowing at nice pace, Manze seems to undermine in the process some of the more lyrical moments where coaxing more emotion from the orchestra would have been welcomed. In "A London Symphony," I don't feel like I'm experiencing the city at all. I'm feeling the experience as a tourist and not someone who actually lives there. He seems so hesitant and cautious. I know he probably doesn't want to make any mistakes from a technical perspective, but a more unhinged approach would have been much more pleasing to hear. "Symphony No. 8" suffers from the same kind of reluctant approach as "A London Symphony." Some consider "Symphony No. 8" to be a puzzling work and, indeed, it doesn't give up it's secrets so easily, but, for me, along with the 3rd, 5th, 6th, it's one of his finest symphonies. The orchestration in itself is a feast for the ears, but under Manze's baton I don't feel quite the same magic as I felt before in the afore mentioned conductors. To end this rambling review, I'm not going to be buying any more of Manze's Vaughan Williams recordings and I'm going to stick to my favorites as they display more than just an understanding of the technical side of the music. In summary, more emotion Mr. Manze, more emotion!

[aukhawk]

I haven't listened to any of the other Manze VW (because there are already so many good alternatives) and wouldn't have even considered this new 7 & 9 issue (for a start, the cover image gets my back up  ) had I not been alerted - in these pages somewhere - that the treatment of the 9th was unusual.  Since I've never got on with the 9th as conducted by Boult, Previn or Haitink, I decided an 'unusual' version might be worth a listen - and so it proved (for me).

[Mirror Image]

I haven't listened to any of the other Manze VW (because there are already so many good alternatives) and wouldn't have even considered this new 7 & 9 issue (for a start, the cover image gets my back up  ) had I not been alerted - in these pages somewhere - that the treatment of the 9th was unusual.  Since I've never got on with the 9th as conducted by Boult, Previn or Haitink, I decided an 'unusual' version might be worth a listen - and so it proved (for me).

The 9th is quite elusive and I probably will listen to it twice once I make way to it (I'm in the midst of a traversal of the symphonies yet again). Have you heard Thomson's 9th? I recall it being excellent.

[cilgwyn]

I just read the Musicweb review of the new Manze recording. I actually like the Gielgud and Richardson recordings,with the spoken superscriptions. Particularly,the Boult;which is my favourite of the two. Both for the performance and,because I prefer Gielgud's speaking voice. Although,I don't have the same problem with Richardson as vandermolen. I think he's okay! And I didn't need to suck a Fisherman's friend after listening to him!! I should point out here,that I'm not too keen on either,as actors. But Gielgud is,quite good,for that kind of work! He's got that kind of,old fashioned,actor's voice! Donat is another one,in Rawsthorne's Practical Cats. (Also,John Westbrook;who,judged by narrations for VW and Bliss recordings,would have been even better than Gielgud or Richardson!)
My idea of a nightmare,would be Brian Blessed! Although,it sounds like Vincent Price might have been a good choice for that Rozhdestvensky recording;if they included spoken superscriptions?!! (And arguably,good,fun?!! )
My idea of a nightmare for the superscriptions is,Brian Blessed,or Simon Callow! I really,don't think I'll bother with the Manze recording. There also seem to be issues with the manner in which the superscriptions are recorded.

For the record;my favourite recordings (with or without the spoken superscriptions) are:

Boult/Mono rec
Barbirolli
Haitink
Previn

The Haitink is fantastic,imo. Not only,the  first recording I ever heard of this work;but one of the first cd's I ever heard. (I had two,from the library. I think the other one was de Falla?!!)

Oh,and Boult's stereo recording! (Runner up!) I'd probably play it more,if emi hadn't added,The Wasps!!

[ritter]

NP:

[asin]B000LC4B34[/asin]

Bartók: String Quartet #5, SZ 102

Finally! Some good music in the RVW thread.  (Just joking...sorry, couldn't help it  ).

[Introverted]

Finally! Some good music in the RVW thread.  (Just joking...sorry, couldn't help it  ).

lol, yeah sorry guys - removed the post and changed to WAYLTN

[Mirror Image]

Finally! Some good music in the RVW thread.  (Just joking...sorry, couldn't help it  ).

I could say something similar if that post landed in ol' Pierre's "composer" thread. Notice the quotations around the word composer.

[Sergeant Rock]

For the record;my favourite recordings (with or without the spoken superscriptions) are:

Boult/Mono rec
Barbirolli
Haitink
Previn

We agree! Of the nine I own, my top three are Boult (Decca), Haitink and Previn (don't own or know the Barbirolli recording).

Sarge

[vandermolen]

I just read the Musicweb review of the new Manze recording. I actually like the Gielgud and Richardson recordings,with the spoken superscriptions. Particularly,the Boult;which is my favourite of the two. Both for the performance and,because I prefer Gielgud's speaking voice. Although,I don't have the same problem with Richardson as vandermolen. I think he's okay! And I didn't need to suck a Fisherman's friend after listening to him!! I should point out here,that I'm not too keen on either,as actors. But Gielgud is,quite good,for that kind of work! He's got that kind of,old fashioned,actor's voice! Donat is another one,in Rawsthorne's Practical Cats. (Also,John Westbrook;who,judged by narrations for VW and Bliss recordings,would have been even better than Gielgud or Richardson!)
My idea of a nightmare,would be Brian Blessed! Although,it sounds like Vincent Price might have been a good choice for that Rozhdestvensky recording;if they included spoken superscriptions?!! (And arguably,good,fun?!! )
My idea of a nightmare for the superscriptions is,Brian Blessed,or Simon Callow! I really,don't think I'll bother with the Manze recording. There also seem to be issues with the manner in which the superscriptions are recorded.

For the record;my favourite recordings (with or without the spoken superscriptions) are:

Boult/Mono rec
Barbirolli
Haitink
Previn

The Haitink is fantastic,imo. Not only,the  first recording I ever heard of this work;but one of the first cd's I ever heard. (I had two,from the library. I think the other one was de Falla?!!)

Oh,and Boult's stereo recording! (Runner up!) I'd probably play it more,if emi hadn't added,The Wasps!!

In celebration of this discussion I'm playing the Previn recording of Sinfonia Antartica, complete with Sir Ralph sounding like he's on the verge of a coughing fit. I like this CD as it also features my favourite recording of Symphony 8, although I need to listen to Bryden Thomson's version again following enthusiastic reactions to it here. At the risk of going round and round in circles in a kind of 'Groundhog Day' and driving everyone nuts, let me repeat that I quite like the spoken introductions on disc, although I also enjoy versions without them. Your idea of Vincent Price performing the narration for the Rozhdestvensky version (with the haywire organist) is brilliant. I'm old enough to remember Vincent Price's TV cookery programme 'Cooking Price Wise' - one of the most unintentionally funny TV programmes that I've ever seen. I remember enjoying watching it with my father in my youth. Yes, Simon Callow would be the worst possible choice (for Sinfonia Antartica). The old Boult Decca recording is my favourite version too. As I've said before I think that Boult's objective style really suits this symphony. I also have a morbid fascination with the Captain Scott story (another Great British Disaster) which may be another reason why I rather like the spoken superscriptions. Also VW did write for the spoken voice elsewhere, in works like 'An Oxford Elegy' and the underrated 'Thanksgiving for Victory' (one of those quirky works like 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I like very much, despite my brother remarking that the latter reminded me of the children's favourite 'Sparky's Magic Piano)'. As an actor I prefer Richardson to Gielgud and Robert Donat was a wonderful actor.

[Karl Henning]

We agree! Of the nine I own, my top three are Boult (Decca), Haitink and Previn (don't own or know the Barbirolli recording).

Sarge

I certainly affirm and endorse the Haitink & Previn.

[JBS]

Two fine VW CDs arrived here this weekend. The overlap being the lovely 'Romance' (in chamber and orchestral versions) and the very enjoyable 'Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes' - a must-have for a resident of Sussex:
I enjoyed the Richard II Incidental Music (1944) very much.

Nota bene for anyone on the North American side of the Pond
The Viola Fantasia CD Is one of Arkivmusic's Weekend Specials this weekend

[Mirror Image]

In celebration of this discussion I'm playing the Previn recording of Sinfonia Antartica, complete with Sir Ralph sounding like he's on the verge of a coughing fit. I like this CD as it also features my favourite recording of Symphony 8, although I need to listen to Bryden Thomson's version again following enthusiastic reactions to it here. At the risk of going round and round in circles in a kind of 'Groundhog Day' and driving everyone nuts, let me repeat that I quite like the spoken introductions on disc, although I also enjoy versions without them. Your idea of Vincent Price performing the narration for the Rozhdestvensky version (with the haywire organist) is brilliant. I'm old enough to remember Vincent Price's TV cookery programme 'Cooking Price Wise' - one of the most unintentionally funny TV programmes that I've ever seen. I remember enjoying watching it with my father in my youth. Yes, Simon Callow would be the worst possible choice (for Sinfonia Antartica). The old Boult Decca recording is my favourite version too. As I've said before I think that Boult's objective style really suits this symphony. I also have a morbid fascination with the Captain Scott story (another Great British Disaster) which may be another reason why I rather like the spoken superscriptions. Also VW did write for the spoken voice elsewhere, in works like 'An Oxford Elegy' and the underrated 'Thanksgiving for Victory' (one of those quirky works like 'Fantasia on the Old 104th' which I like very much, despite my brother remarking that the latter reminded me of the children's favourite 'Sparky's Magic Piano)'. As an actor I prefer Richardson to Gielgud and Robert Donat was a wonderful actor.

I'm rather ambivalent about spoken words in symphonic music (or any music for that matter). Sometimes I can tolerate if it's not too intrusive but there's other times where I'm just wondering what was even the point? When it comes to RVW's Sinfonia Antartica, I'm of the 'what's the point?' opinion. What I usually do if the recording allows me to is edit out those spoken introductions. I know I remember doing this with the Previn recording. I think Boult's performance on EMI is the best one I've heard, but I love Previn's and Thomson's as well. I feel that Thomson's cycle on Chandos is one of the best on record. I have not heard one performance that wasn't committed, thought-provoking, and, most of all, emotionally moving.

[vandermolen]

I'm rather ambivalent about spoken words in symphonic music (or any music for that matter). Sometimes I can tolerate if it's not too intrusive but there's other times where I'm just wondering what was even the point? When it comes to RVW's Sinfonia Antartica, I'm of the 'what's the point?' opinion. What I usually do if the recording allows me to is edit out those spoken introductions. I know I remember doing this with the Previn recording. I think Boult's performance on EMI is the best one I've heard, but I love Previn's and Thomson's as well. I feel that Thomson's cycle on Chandos is one of the best on record. I have not heard one performance that wasn't committed, thought-provoking, and, most of all, emotionally moving.

Totally agree with you about Thomson John and I also prefer his Bax cycle to Handley's. I also think that Boult's EMI Sinfonia Antartica, without the spoken intros, is a very special performance. When I was at college my friends had a copy of the LP, with the fine Antarctic landscape on the front, and we played it over and over again - happy memories for me:

[Irons]

I'm with John on this (spoken words). The tragic Scott expedition is fully conveyed by the music alone, I feel chilly listening to it!

Did RVW himself express any views on whether dialogue should be included?

[Biffo]

I'm with John on this (spoken words). The tragic Scott expedition is fully conveyed by the music alone, I feel chilly listening to it!

Did RVW himself express any views on whether dialogue should be included?

Yes, in the score - the 3rd and 4th movements are to be played without a break.