Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[aukhawk]

Did RVW himself express any views on whether dialogue should be included?

Some hearsay - quoted from the sleevenotes for the Leppard recording of the Antartica - amounting to a tacit endorsement by VW.  If true.

Maestro Leppard soon recounted the story of a meeting which took place between he and Vaughan Williams.  It was during this meeting that the composer suggested to Raymond Leppard that excerpts of Captain Scott's journals accompany the Sinfonia antartica in place of the text of Shelley, Donne and Coleridge called for in the original score.

As to "what's the point" I would suggest from his delivery Timothy West might agree - certainly in the case of the 2nd superscript, the Leviathan one - which he tosses away like a used tissue.  (The 3rd one on the other hand, he does rather well.)
Editing - all the superscriptions on the Manze recording would be easy to clip out (or track separately, which of course they should have done - and is what I have done) and yes between movements 3 and 4 there will be an audible edit in the (quiet) music but not a terribly hard or offensive one, over in a flash, really no music is lost (one held note transitions to another under the speech - remove the speech and you still get to hear both held notes, just a bit shorter).

There also seem to be issues with the manner in which the superscriptions are recorded.

So that reviewer says.  So they are recorded on a separate occasion, in a different location and acoustic**.  So is the organ, in this and almost all other recordings of the Antartica.  No-one bats an eyelid about that.

** I'd be willing to bet that the 'empty hall' he hears on the voice recording is 90% artificial anyway.  I know a box of digits when I hear one.

[Biffo]

When did this alleged meeting take place, bearing in mind RVW died in 1958. Why should he suggest such a thing to a young harpsichordist and conductor of baroque music?

Edit: In the absence of any definitive statement from the composer himself the article on p3 of this journal has some interesting things to say about the literary superscriptions - https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rvw_journal_21.pdf

[Mirror Image]

Totally agree with you about Thomson John and I also prefer his Bax cycle to Handley's. I also think that Boult's EMI Sinfonia Antartica, without the spoken intros, is a very special performance. When I was at college my friends had a copy of the LP, with the fine Antarctic landscape on the front, and we played it over and over again - happy memories for me:

Very nice, Jeffrey. I really like those original Boult LP covers. Handley is one of my least favorites in RVW. He's a good conductor but, like Manze, there's something missing in his performances.

[Mirror Image]

I know this has been brought up before, but I don't mind bringing up old wounds or joys for other members: what do all of you think of Haitink's cycle? If you would be so kind to oblige me in perhaps telling me (for those that enjoy the cycle) what symphonies do you feel Haitink got right and which ones seemed to go over his head? I haven't listened to any of Haitink's RVW in years and last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

[Roasted Swan]

How stupid am I!  I replied to a post this morning about the Vaughan Williams Variations for Brass Band - wanted to go back to edit it but can't remember which thread it was on and can't find it!  So my "edit" will have to go here.  My comment was about the coupling of these Variations on the Brabbins/Hyperion/London Symphony disc and how to my ear it didn't sound like a proper "brass band" even though it was listed as played by "The Royal College of Music Brass Band".  Something about this ensemble didn't sound right to me - when did a Conservatoire provide 'specialist' training for brass band.... never when I was at one for sure. 

So I checked out the RCM website and indeed they offer a plethora of ensembles and orchestras for their students to participate in..... but no brass band is listed - www.rcm.ac.uk/life/preparingforprofession/ensembles/ .  So, as I thought, this is an ensemble of (very good) brass players from the College but in no way is it a brass band.  You only need to listen to a minute of this performance to know that but it irks me a little that Hyperion have 'faked' a name.  I guess it made for a cheap filler - I doubt they paid MU rates for that recording.......

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I know this has been brought up before, but I don't mind bringing up old wounds or joys for other members: what do all of you think of Haitink's cycle? If you would be so kind to oblige me in perhaps telling me (for those that enjoy the cycle) what symphonies do you feel Haitink got right and which ones seemed to go over his head? I haven't listened to any of Haitink's RVW in years and last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

The only Haitink disc I have is the 3/4, which I bought because it got good reviews pretty much all round. I find the leisurely ("slug-like") tempi work really well in the Pastoral. It's a very dark, mellow kind of landscape, and I think he's very successful in sustaining the atmosphere throughout. The 4th is also good, but sounds a bit generic by comparison by with the 3rd.

[Karl Henning]

The only Haitink disc I have is the 3/4, which I bought because it got good reviews pretty much all round. I find the leisurely ("slug-like") tempi work really well in the Pastoral. It's a very dark, mellow kind of landscape, and I think he's very successful in sustaining the atmosphere throughout. The 4th is also good, but sounds a bit generic by comparison by with the 3rd.

That was my entrée to the Pastoral, and I was hooked.

[Sergeant Rock]

last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

Listen to his Fourth. Energy to spare and quite the opposite of slug-like tempi. But yeah, in many of the symphonies his tempi are on the broad side...which is one of the reasons I love his cycle. Slow gives me time to absorb and appreciate the details. His is my desert island VW. Especially love his 1, 3 (stoic grandeur), 5, 7, 8 and 9.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

The only Haitink disc I have is the 3/4, which I bought because it got good reviews pretty much all round. I find the leisurely ("slug-like") tempi work really well in the Pastoral. It's a very dark, mellow kind of landscape, and I think he's very successful in sustaining the atmosphere throughout. The 4th is also good, but sounds a bit generic by comparison by with the 3rd.

That was my entrée to the Pastoral, and I was hooked.

Listen to his Fourth. Energy to spare and quite the opposite of slug-like tempi. But yeah, in many of the symphonies his tempi are on the broad side...which is one of the reasons I love his cycle. Slow gives me time to absorb and appreciate the details. His is my desert island VW. Especially love his 1, 3 (stoic grandeur), 5, 7, 8 and 9.

Sarge

Thanks for the feedback, gents. Looks like I might have to listen more attentively and give ol' Bernard a chance. I'll listen to his Pastoral and, if I like it, I'll proceed with the rest.

[vandermolen]

I know this has been brought up before, but I don't mind bringing up old wounds or joys for other members: what do all of you think of Haitink's cycle? If you would be so kind to oblige me in perhaps telling me (for those that enjoy the cycle) what symphonies do you feel Haitink got right and which ones seemed to go over his head? I haven't listened to any of Haitink's RVW in years and last time I listened to it, I was taken aback by the lack of energy and almost the slug-like tempi that were chosen.

I never 'got' A Sea Symphony until I heard Haitink's performance which was and still is a revelation to me - especially the music of the finale, so I shall always be grateful for that. I have his VW and Shostakovich boxed sets. The other performance I rather like is of the enigmatic Symphony No.6 which I think few conductors get right (I like the Boult LPO and LSO recordings and those by Abravanel - especially as he does not rush the last movement like so many others, Thomson, Andrew Davis and Barbirolli). Haitink's recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi-Yar' moved me like no other version. I've seen him conduct several times, mainly Bruckner and Shostakovich and always thought highly of those performances. I agree with you about Handley's VW cycle. It is good but none of his recordings would be my chosen version although the harps at the end of No.9 are very good and I like his Liverpool version of A London Symphony.

[Mirror Image]

I never 'got' A Sea Symphony until I heard Haitink's performance which was and still is a revelation to me - especially the music of the finale, so I shall always be grateful for that. I have his VW and Shostakovich boxed sets. The other performance I rather like is of the enigmatic Symphony No.6 which I think few conductors get right (I like the Boult LPO and LSO recordings and those by Abravanel - especially as he does not rush the last movement like so many others, Thomson, Andrew Davis and Barbirolli). Haitink's recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony 'Babi-Yar' moved me like no other version. I've seen him conduct several times, mainly Bruckner and Shostakovich and always thought highly of those performances. I agree with you about Handley's VW cycle. It is good but none of his recordings would be my chosen version although the harps at the end of No.9 are very good and I like his Liverpool version of A London Symphony.

Very nice, Jeffrey. A Sea Symphony is a rather difficult one to get right much like the 6th is as well. Haitink is a fine conductor, but how would say he does in the 5th or 8th?

[vandermolen]

Very nice, Jeffrey. A Sea Symphony is a rather difficult one to get right much like the 6th is as well. Haitink is a fine conductor, but how would say he does in the 5th or 8th?

You must be a night owl John! Normally I expect a several hours time lag between communications between our British/European and American friends but not with you! 
I need to listen again to 5 and 8. I do, however, remember enjoying the CD release featuring symphonies 8 and 9 when it first came out.

[Mirror Image]

You must be a night owl John! Normally I expect a several hours time lag between communications between our British/European and American friends but not with you! 
I need to listen again to 5 and 8. I do, however, remember enjoying the CD release featuring symphonies 8 and 9 when it first came out.

Well, it's 1 AM here right now, so I wouldn't necessarily call myself a night owl, but this is when I do start winding down and getting ready for bed. The 8th is another symphony that's difficult to pull off. I would say that really those last symphonies like 6 through 9 take a conductor that's up for the challenge and not every conductor succeeds in these particular symphonies. I guess you could really say that all of the RVW symphonies present particular challenges for a conductor and orchestra.

[vandermolen]

Well, it's 1 AM here right now, so I wouldn't necessarily call myself a night owl, but this is when I do start winding down and getting ready for bed. The 8th is another symphony that's difficult to pull off. I would say that really those last symphonies like 6 through 9 take a conductor that's up for the challenge and not every conductor succeeds in these particular symphonies. I guess you could really say that all of the RVW symphonies present particular challenges for a conductor and orchestra.

I just checked up the time in your part of the world and it is earlier than I thought  I had this vision of you listening to VW, Dutilleux, Debussy, Delius and Walton at 3.00am  .

Totally agree with your VW comments above. I'm currently (6.00am here) listening to my nice new CD of VW's Viola music. Doesn't go down well here if I play Symphony 4 or 6 at top volume at this hour. 

[Mirror Image]

I just checked up the time in your part of the world and it is earlier than I thought  I had this vision of you listening to VW, Dutilleux, Debussy, Delius and Walton at 3.00am  .

Totally agree with your VW comments above. I'm currently (6.00am here) listening to my nice new CD of VW's Viola music. Doesn't go down well here if I play Symphony 4 or 6 at top volume at this hour. 

Hah! Yeah, I'm too tired to listen to anything at 3 AM. I'm currently going through Thomson's cycle on Chandos and plan on listening to the Sinfonia Antartica and Symphony No. 8 (will save Symphony No. 9 for Monday). I'm also interested in going through Arnold's and Rubbra's symphonies again, but also Nielsen's and Sibelius'.

[vandermolen]

Hah! Yeah, I'm too tired to listen to anything at 3 AM. I'm currently going through Thomson's cycle on Chandos and plan on listening to the Sinfonia Antartica and Symphony No. 8 (will save Symphony No. 9 for Monday). I'm also interested in going through Arnold's and Rubbra's symphonies again, but also Nielsen's and Sibelius'.

Well, I have a nice new Nielsen boxed set to discover .
Those four are amongst my favourite symphonists. Rubbra is very interesting, especially symphonies 4-8 all of which I rate very highly. Maybe 4,5 and 7 are my absolute favourites and there is a fabulous Boult Lyrita CD featuring Symphony 7 and a Barbirolli one of Symphony 5.
Here are two great LP discoveries of my younger self and my introductions to both Rubbra's symphonies and to VW's Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus - one of my favourite works.

[Mirror Image]

Very nice, Jeffrey. Both of those look like nice recordings.

[Irons]

Well, I have a nice new Nielsen boxed set to discover .
Those four are amongst my favourite symphonists. Rubbra is very interesting, especially symphonies 4-8 all of which I rate very highly. Maybe 4,5 and 7 are my absolute favourites and there is a fabulous Boult Lyrita CD featuring Symphony 7 and a Barbirolli one of Symphony 5.
Here are two great LP discoveries of my younger self and my introductions to both Rubbra's symphonies and to VW's Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus - one of my favourite works.

I have both of those LP's of my "older" self, Jeffrey. I had forgotten that Boult Tallis on Lyrita. Also Sargent, poor old "flash Harry" tends to be pushed to the margins but he made some great recordings of English music including RVW.

[Mirror Image]

Compositional Spotlight - Flos campi

Vaughan Williams played the viola, and frequently professed it was his favorite instrument. Along with the Suite for viola and orchestra of 1934, his most significant work for the instrument is the unusual Flos Campi (Flower of the Field), which combines the viola with a spare orchestral backing of strings, winds, tabor, and celesta, along with a mixed choir that sings wordlessly. It was first performed on October 10, 1925, in London, with violist Lionel Tertis, voices from the Royal College of Music, and the Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Sir Henry Wood. The reaction was mixed, and even such close friends of the composer as Gustav Holst admitted themselves puzzled by this subtle and voluptuous work.

In a program note for a 1927 performance, Vaughan Williams admitted "The title Flos Campi was taken by some to connote an atmosphere of 'buttercups and daisies....'" This is, in fact, far from the atmosphere of this work. Each of its six movements is headed by a quotation from the Old Testament's Song of Solomon, and it is the passionate quality of that text which informs Flos Campi. The work opens with the juxtaposition of viola and oboe, both playing melodically but in different keys, creating palpable tension. This opening movement is languorous and mysterious, its associated text speaking of the sickness of love, of how it is a "lily among thorns." Nature springs to life in the second movement, with the "singing of birds" and the "voice of the turtle." But the beloved is not present, and the third movement is passionate and agitated, with the viola accompanied mostly by the women of the choir. Men "expert in war" are at Solomon's bed in the vigorous fourth-movement march, in which the violist has an opportunity for some virtuoso display. The music builds to a rather tense climax, at which point we hear the murmuring of voices, over which the viola soars longingly. The orchestra takes up this music in a more peaceful strain, and the choir sings in sweet polyphony. The opening viola-oboe duet returns, but its ambivalence is resolved as the melodic material of the fifth movement is taken up again in a quiet and magical coda.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

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When I first heard Flos Campi, I was rather taken with its' inherit beauty, but it was still rather unusual of a work for me. It took me several listens before coming to grips with its' structure and what it's possible intent could have been. I'll never truly know what this work means and what the purpose of it was, but that's rather unimportant when you're listening to it. It's really a strange phenomenon --- the way the work kind of lingers around and, if mist ever had any sound at all, this would certainly be close to it. I love the piece and even though I remain rather baffled by it, this never hindered my enjoyment of it nor of the ravishing sonorities RVW conjured up. One of a kind piece of music.

Reference recording: Cecil Aronowitz (viola), The King's College Choir of Cambridge, Jacques Orchestra, Sir David Willcocks (EMI)

What do you guys think of the work? Any favorite performances?

[TheGSMoeller]

This is the one I listen to the most. Transitioning from the brute-strength of the 4th Symphony into Flos Campi always captivates me. And the performances are spot-on, especially the lovely Flos Campi, and both recorded with excellent clarity.