Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2020, 10:47:57 PM
No video shows up John. 'Adobe Flash Player is Blocked'.

I remember the nice Bruckner picture from Hans-Hubert Schoenzeler's excellent short biography of the composer. Schoenzeler also conducted some Rubbra recordings.

Interesting Jeffrey as I just watched it.  I know that I need to remove my Adobe Flash soon.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Mirror Image

Quote from: vandermolen on December 18, 2020, 10:47:57 PM
No video shows up John. 'Adobe Flash Player is Blocked'.

I remember the nice Bruckner picture from Hans-Hubert Schoenzeler's excellent short biography of the composer. Schoenzeler also conducted some Rubbra recordings.


Interesting. The video shows up for me. It's Hurwitz picking the best and worst Vaughan Williams symphony cycles. Here's a direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758

I think you'll especially like his comments regarding the original version of A London Symphony. ;)

Mirror Image

Did you watch the Hurwitz video yet, Jeffrey?

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:35:18 AM
Interesting. The video shows up for me. It's Hurwitz picking the best and worst Vaughan Williams symphony cycles. Here's a direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758

I think you'll especially like his comments regarding the original version of A London Symphony. ;)

I knew he hated hated hated the Haitink cycle, so that wasn't a surprise to me. Personally I have Haitink's 3/4 and find it superior to Slatkin's 3/4, the latter being his favorite cycle. Different strokes and all that.

He makes a good point that VW's symphonies are so varied in expression that it's very hard for one conductor to do them all successfully.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:35:18 AM
Interesting. The video shows up for me. It's Hurwitz picking the best and worst Vaughan Williams symphony cycles. Here's a direct link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIaepn3758

I think you'll especially like his comments regarding the original version of A London Symphony. ;)

Thanks John. Will watch later this evening or tomorrow.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 19, 2020, 10:35:16 AMHe makes a good point that VW's symphonies are so varied in expression that it's very hard for one conductor to do them all successfully.

This could be said of many composers' symphonies: Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, Shostakovich, etc. I definitely don't agree with him and his assessment on the Handley cycle (overall just a faceless cycle to me). Also, I don't have praise for the Naxos cycle either --- mediocre performances at best. Naxos must pay him a lot of money to say a lot of what he says about their label's recordings as it seems like he's always kissing their ass.

Mirror Image


vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 10:21:09 AM
Did you watch the Hurwitz video yet, Jeffrey?
Well, I have now John and I think that I may have watched it before as some sections seemed familiar. As always he is highly entertaining, however, I felt that this survey was a bit slap-dash and sometimes the humour got in the way of the analysis. He makes some fairly basic mistakes. there was never a 'Sir Vaughan Williams' as the composer refused to accept a knighthood. Also it was Ralph Richardson rather than John Gielgud who provided the narration for Previn's recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica'. It was good to see him put in a good word for the IMO underrated Andrew Davis and Leonard Slatkin cycles and I largely agree with his comments on the Previn cycle (although Symphony No.8 is my favourite version). Also, I agree with his comments on the Handley cycle. He is wrong about Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' which is my No.1 version and is too disparaging about the early Boult Decca/Everest cycle.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

#4888
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 12:59:38 PM
Well, I have now John and I think that I may have watched it before as some sections seemed familiar. As always he is highly entertaining, however, I felt that this survey was a bit slap-dash and sometimes the humour got in the way of the analysis. He makes some fairly basic mistakes. there was never a 'Sir Vaughan Williams' as the composer refused to accept a knighthood. Also it was Ralph Richardson rather than John Gielgud who provided the narration for Previn's recording of 'Sinfonia Antartica'. It was good to see him put in a good word for the IMO underrated Andrew Davis and Leonard Slatkin cycles and I largely agree with his comments on the Previn cycle (although Symphony No.8 is my favourite version). Also, I agree with his comments on the Handley cycle. He is wrong about Haitink's 'Sea Symphony' which is my No.1 version and is too disparaging about the early Boult Decca/Everest cycle.

Interesting. I have my own take on RVW of course. I never have liked any of Haitink's RVW, so he and I are in agreement about that, although he does go a bit too far expressing his dislike for it. It's like "We get it. Can you move on, please?" I do not like the Handley cycle at all --- I can't even think of one outstanding performance in his entire cycle. As I mentioned earlier, I find his performances faceless and there's simply not enough individuality in the performances for me to keep coming back to them. I see he made a mistake and pulled the Boult EMI cycle and I think this is one of the best, but I may be a little biased here as this was the cycle that got me hooked on this composer's music. I love Boult's RVW so much that I have several different iterations of it. I also agree with Hurwitz in that I prefer the revision of the A London Symphony, although I do like the 1920 version very much that Brabbins recorded (and a few others). I honestly didn't even finish the video because he got on my nerves, but I also disagree with him about the sound of the Thomson Chandos cycle. I have no issues with it at all. Of course, I love the Previn's cycle --- one of my favorites. His recording of the 5th (one of the most difficult RVW symphonies to get right, IMHO) is truly one for the ages and the same applies to his A Pastoral Symphony. Anyway, I think I've gone on a bit too long for now. :D

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 01:37:01 PM
Interesting. I have my own take on RVW of course. I never have liked any of Haitink's RVW, so he and I are in agreement about that, although he does go a bit too far expressing his dislike for it. It's like "We get it. Can you move on, please?" I do not like the Handley cycle at all --- I can't even think of one outstanding performance in his entire cycle. As I mentioned earlier, I find his performances faceless and there's simply not enough individuality in the performances for me to keep coming back to them. I see he made a mistake and pulled the Boult EMI cycle and I think this is one of the best, but I may be a little biased here as this was the cycle that got me hooked on this composer's music. I love Boult's RVW so much that I have several different iterations of it. I also agree with Hurwitz in that I prefer the revision of the A London Symphony, although I do like the 1920 version very much that Brabbins recorded (and a few others). I honestly didn't even finish the video because he got on my nerves, but I also disagree with him about the sound of the Thomson Chandos cycle. I have no issues with it at all. Of course, I love the Previn's cycle --- one of my favorites. His recording of the 5th (one of the most difficult RVW symphonies to get right, IMHO) is truly one for the ages and the same applies to his A Pastoral Symphony. Anyway, I think I've gone on a bit too long for now. :D
Not at all John. As always, I read your comments with much interest. In fact I agree much more with you than with Hurwitz on Vaughan Williams. I rate Thomson's set very highly, especially No.6 which Hurwitz was dismissive of and No.9. I have no problem with the cavernous sound either. Handley's performances never inspired me. I don't think that he was a particularly insightful conductor of Vaughan Williams, although that set has many admirers. I do however really like the Hickox CD featuring the 1913 version of A London Symphony, although my favourite version is from 1920. I thought that Hurwitz's comparative survey of recordings of 'Job' was much better.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2020, 02:16:57 PM
Not at all John. As always, I read your comments with much interest. In fact I agree much more with you than with Hurwitz on Vaughan Williams. I rate Thomson's set very highly, especially No.6 which Hurwitz was dismissive of and No.9. I have no problem with the cavernous sound either. Handley's performances never inspired me. I don't think that he was a particularly insightful conductor of Vaughan Williams, although that set has many admirers. I do however really like the Hickox CD featuring the 1913 version of A London Symphony, although my favourite version is from 1920. I thought that Hurwitz's comparative survey of recordings of 'Job' was much better.

Yes, indeed. I don't actually agree with him on Job either. :) My two favorite Job recordings are Boult's later EMI one and Hickox's (on EMI), which Hurwitz didn't even mention. I found the newer Andrew Davis a bit of a letdown to be honest. I haven't heard Elder's new recording. I might buy it since I'm starting to feel of ol' Ralph yet again. :) Isn't the Elder one that you're getting for Christmas?

Sergeant Rock

I like the Hurwitzer but, boy, do he and I disagree about Vaughan Williams. My two favorite cycles are the two he dismissed: Boult (Decca) and Haitink. I love all Haitink's performances except his Fourth. And Boult does it for me in 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 (Decca) and 2 and 8 (EMI).

But I also have favorites among the other cycles, including one he didn't mention: Rozh.

Handley: 3 and 8
Slatkin: 1 and 4
Previn: 3, 5 and 7
Thomson: 2, 8 and 9
Bakels: 9
Rozhdestvensky: 4 and 5

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Mirror Image

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
I like the Hurwitzer but, boy, do he and I disagree about Vaughan Williams. My two favorite cycles are the two he dismissed: Boult (Decca) and Haitink. I love all Haitink's performances except his Fourth. And Boult does it for me in 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 (Decca) and 2 and 8 (EMI).

But I also have favorites among the other cycles, including one he didn't mention: Rozh.

Handley: 3 and 8
Slatkin: 1 and 4
Previn: 3, 5 and 7
Thomson: 2, 8 and 9
Bakels: 9
Rozhdestvensky: 4 and 5

Sarge

Ah yes, I knew you loved the Haitink, Sarge. I remember you like a bit slower performances in general. Like I recall you had a preference for Rozhdestvensky's Nielsen for example. In Vaughan Williams, especially in the 3rd, 5th and 8th symphonies, I like a bit swifter performances, but I'm fine if they want to take their time in the 5th's Romanza. ;) This is always a great wallow, but it's also just a fine piece of music.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 03:53:53 PM
Ah yes, I knew you loved the Haitink, Sarge. I remember you like a bit slower performances in general.

In general yes but I do like Thomson and Bakels' very fast Ninths. Odd though that in the preceding Symphony Thomson is very slow, especially in the first movement.  Of the twelve recordings of the Eighth I own, only Stokowski is slower than Thomson.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Mirror Image

#4894
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 04:12:20 PM
In general yes but I do like Thomson and Bakels' very fast Ninths. Odd though that in the preceding Symphony Thomson is very slow, especially in the first movement.  Of the twelve recordings of the Eighth I own, only Stokowski is slower than Thomson.

Sarge

Yes and this is one instance where I think some of the slower tempi work in the 8th. Generally, this symphony benefits, IMHO, from a swifter performance. I recall that Vaughan Williams played the 8th back on the piano for a friend and the friend commented to him that it sounded more like a sinfonietta than a symphony. And Ralph quickly replied, "I don't care what you say. This is a symphony." or something to this effect, I"m paraphrasing. For many listeners, the 8th and 9th symphonies are perhaps the most enigmatic and strange. I'd say of the all of the symphonies, the 9th is the one I'm the least familiar with and I don't know why this is the case. I should revisit this work.

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 02:47:34 PM
Yes, indeed. I don't actually agree with him on Job either. :) My two favorite Job recordings are Boult's later EMI one and Hickox's (on EMI), which Hurwitz didn't even mention. I found the newer Andrew Davis a bit of a letdown to be honest. I haven't heard Elder's new recording. I might buy it since I'm starting to feel of ol' Ralph yet again. :) Isn't the Elder one that you're getting for Christmas?
I think that he briefly mentioned the Hickox 'Job' in a positive light but I may be wrong. I read some negative review of Elder's Job and, although I will probably still get it eventually, I have asked my daughter to buy me the soundtrack from 'The Crown: Series 3' instead ( ::)). However, my wife is giving me the Brabbins Symphony 5 and 'Pilgrim's Progress' music - so, I have not abandoned Vaughan Williams altogether at Christmas  ;D.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

#4896
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 04:15:37 PM
Yes and this is one instance where I think some of the slower tempi work in the 8th. Generally, this symphony benefits, IMHO, from a swifter performance. I recall that Vaughan Williams played the 8th back on the piano for a friend and the friend commented to him that it sounded more like a sinfonietta than a symphony. And Ralph quickly replied, "I don't care what you say. This is a symphony." or something to this effect, I"m paraphrasing. For many listeners, the 8th and 9th symphonies are perhaps the most enigmatic and strange. I'd say of the all of the symphonies, the 9th is the one I'm the least familiar with and I don't know why this is the case. I should revisit this work.
I love No.9 and find it very moving - a great work.
I think that it is well served on disc and especially like Stokowski's recording on Cala, both the Boult's, the earlier one from the day of VW's death is more urgent and the later one is more reflective - work in different ways. BBC Music Magazine issued a fine recording live by Andrew Davis and both Thomson and Slatkin are, IMO, excellent. I have both manifestations of the Haitink box set ( ::)) but, oddly enough, I'm not that familiar with his recordings, although his 'A Sea Symphony' is my absolute favourite and he is one of the few to get No.6 right. I know that Haitink's nos. 2 and 7 were very highly rated when they originally appeared. Having been dismissive of Handley I would add that his harps at the end of No.9 are perhaps the most moving of all. I rather like Handley's earlier LPO/EMI recording of 'A London Symphony' which I prefer to the Liverpool performance, in a nice two disc set:
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Christo

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
I like the Hurwitzer but, boy, do he and I disagree about Vaughan Williams. My two favorite cycles are the two he dismissed: Boult (Decca) and Haitink. I love all Haitink's performances except his Fourth. And Boult does it for me in 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 (Decca) and 2 and 8 (EMI).

But I also have favorites among the other cycles, including one he didn't mention: Rozh.

Handley: 3 and 8
Slatkin: 1 and 4
Previn: 3, 5 and 7
Thomson: 2, 8 and 9
Bakels: 9
Rozhdestvensky: 4 and 5

Sarge
Great survey! I think I don't agree on all of the details, but love the general picture.
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Biffo

I also vaguely remember this review, certainly I bought the Slatkin cycle as a result of a discussion in this thread. I found nothing to complain about from Slatkin; several posters thought his Sea Symphony to be the finest of all, I thought it was OK but not exceptional.

I bought the Haitink cycle as it was issued and didn't find it anywhere near as bad as Hurwitz makes out - Sinfonia antartica was the highlight.

I don't think any one cycle contains the best of each symphony though Previn comes closest.

This is the first time for ages I have listened to a complete review from Hurwitz and it reminded me how much his voice irritates me and the silly voices and stupid comments even more so; at least a third of the review could be removed to good effect.

Mirror Image

#4899
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:38:06 AM
I think that he briefly mentioned the Hickox 'Job' in a positive light but I may be wrong. I read some negative review of Elder's Job and, although I will probably still get it eventually, I have asked my daughter to buy me the soundtrack from 'The Crown: Series 3' instead ( ::)). However, my wife is giving me the Brabbins Symphony 5 and 'Pilgrim's Progress' music - so, I have not abandoned Vaughan Williams altogether at Christmas  ;D.

Interesting, Jeffrey. I bought the Elder Job because the sound samples sounded quite nice and I did read many positive reviews about. I think you'll end up buying it sooner or later. ;)

Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:44:50 AM
I love No.9 and find it very moving - a great work.
I think that it is well served on disc and especially like Stokowski's recording on Cala, both the Boult's, the earlier one from the day of VW's death is more urgent and the later one is more reflective - work in different ways. BBC Music Magazine issued a fine recording live by Andrew Davis and both Thomson and Slatkin are, IMO, excellent. I have both manifestations of the Haitink box set ( ::)) but, oddly enough, I'm not that familiar with his recordings, although his 'A Sea Symphony' is my absolute favourite and he is one of the few to get No.6 right. I know that Haitink's nos. 2 and 7 were very highly rated when they originally appeared. Having been dismissive of Handley I would add that his harps at the end of No.9 are perhaps the most moving of all. I rather like Handley's earlier LPO/EMI recording of 'A London Symphony' which I prefer to the Liverpool performance, in a nice two disc set:


I've pretty much closed the door on Handley's RVW --- it's not for me and I just haven't responded to any of his performances so far and I've owned his cycle for years and years. I hang onto it hoping I'll have one of those 'lightbulb' moments with it, but it hasn't happened yet. The same with Haitink who is a conductor I generally like a lot, but just find him unmoving in RVW. I'll have to re-listen to some of Andrew Davis' performances as I own his Teldec cycle.