Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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aukhawk

Prompted by recent posts I've listened for the first time to the recordings of the 5th and 6th by Marriner/ASMF.  I really liked both. 
In the 5th, he does not quite displace my first choice which is Kalmar/Oregon but in general the ASMF refinement and light touch suits this music perfectly.  Only in the 3rd movement Romanza does this performance feel slightly prosaic, lacking in sentiment.
In the 6th the same strengths and weaknesses are apparent.  The refined approach robs the first three movements of some of their turbulence and unrest - which I welcome.  On the basis of these three movements, this could be a first choice for me, because noisy angst is not what I come to RVW for.  The Epilogue however is a bit too quick, not so hushed, and again 'prosaic' is the word that springs to mind.  Towards the end it rather sounds as though the bass clarinet player - given a nice solo shortly before the end - takes a unilateral decision to apply the brakes.  Everyone else - conductor included - has to hold their breath until he has finished, and then the last few bars unfold really well.
I don't really know where my first choice lies for the 6th - possibly Andrew Davis/BBC SO.

vandermolen

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2022, 12:52:48 AM
I have to say that the group of recordings Menuhin made with the RPO on their "own" Tring label are very very good indeed - as are his Elgar Symphonies etc with the same  orchestra on Virgin.  HOWEVER, I also know from colleagues who were in the RPO at that time that his conducting technique was so vague and unfathomable that more often than not at key corners in the score it was a case of follow the leader - literally - and ignore the podium.  The curious thing is that - as with his own playing - apparently Menuhin had little or no awareness of just how poor his own technique was.  BUT - when the music was familiar and his technical shortcomings could be accomodated he DID bring musical inspiration as can be heard on those discs.  His Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Sinfonia Varsovia is likewise very good.
Most interesting RS.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: aukhawk on May 20, 2022, 02:44:13 AM
Prompted by recent posts I've listened for the first time to the recordings of the 5th and 6th by Marriner/ASMF.  I really liked both. 
In the 5th, he does not quite displace my first choice which is Kalmar/Oregon but in general the ASMF refinement and light touch suits this music perfectly.  Only in the 3rd movement Romanza does this performance feel slightly prosaic, lacking in sentiment.
In the 6th the same strengths and weaknesses are apparent.  The refined approach robs the first three movements of some of their turbulence and unrest - which I welcome.  On the basis of these three movements, this could be a first choice for me, because noisy angst is not what I come to RVW for.  The Epilogue however is a bit too quick, not so hushed, and again 'prosaic' is the word that springs to mind.  Towards the end it rather sounds as though the bass clarinet player - given a nice solo shortly before the end - takes a unilateral decision to apply the brakes.  Everyone else - conductor included - has to hold their breath until he has finished, and then the last few bars unfold really well.
I don't really know where my first choice lies for the 6th - possibly Andrew Davis/BBC SO.
I've always liked that generally poorly-reviewed Marriner disc. I find that it delivers a less urgent but more compassionate reading of No.6, which I find an entirely valid approach. Marriner's 5 may be reissued soon on a different label.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Spotted Horses

#5543
I'm interested in different interpretation of the 5th. I've been going backward through the Boult/EMI set and No 5 is next in the queue. Comments that Boult's performance is more urgent than some others makes me feel more interested in hearing it.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Irons

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2022, 12:52:48 AM
I have to say that the group of recordings Menuhin made with the RPO on their "own" Tring label are very very good indeed - as are his Elgar Symphonies etc with the same  orchestra on Virgin.  HOWEVER, I also know from colleagues who were in the RPO at that time that his conducting technique was so vague and unfathomable that more often than not at key corners in the score it was a case of follow the leader - literally - and ignore the podium.  The curious thing is that - as with his own playing - apparently Menuhin had little or no awareness of just how poor his own technique was.  BUT - when the music was familiar and his technical shortcomings could be accomodated he DID bring musical inspiration as can be heard on those discs.  His Beethoven Symphony cycle with the Sinfonia Varsovia is likewise very good.

Not a trick question but would you think the same reasoning would apply to Klemperer and his Indian summer with the Philharmonia? It has been said that the Philharmonia made some great records despite Klemperer, not because of him. I have never believed that. Making music is not an exact science, thankfully. 

 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

#5545
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 07:07:24 AM
I'm interested in different interpretation of the 5th. I've been going backward through the Boult/EMI set and No 5 is next in the queue. Comments that Boult's performance is more urgent than some others makes me feel more interested in hearing it.
Arthur, my now infamous 'more urgent' comment related to the new ICA CD of Boult conducting live performances of symphonies 5 and 6 - these are different performances to the studio ones in the Boult/EMI set.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Spotted Horses

Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 08:34:32 AM
Arthur, my now infamous 'more urgent' comment related to the new ICA CD of Boult conducting live performances of symphonies 5 and 6 - these are different performances to the studio ones in the Boult/EMI set.


Yes, I'm aware you were remarking on the live recording, but I also noted Roasted Swan's comment (that I agree with) that Boult's performances often have a direct and urgent quality. I expect some of the directness and urgency will manifest itself in the studio recording as well.

There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

vandermolen

Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 09:03:23 AM
Yes, I'm aware you were remarking on the live recording, but I also noted Roasted Swan's comment (that I agree with) that Boult's performances often have a direct and urgent quality. I expect some of the directness and urgency will manifest itself in the studio recording as well.
Yes, I think that's probably true, although I don't recall that No.5 was one of the highlights of the Boult EMI set. However, all the performances are good.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 20, 2022, 07:07:24 AM
I'm interested in different interpretation of the 5th. I've been going backward through the Boult/EMI set and No 5 is next in the queue. Comments that Boult's performance is more urgent than some others makes me feel more interested in hearing it.

There's nothing wrong with urgency as long as it's in the right places, however, this urgency has no place in the Romanza movement and this is what happens in the Boult/BBC SO performance on ICA Classics. This kind of approach goes against what I personally believe the music is about, but, thankfully, there's plenty of other performances to choose from and YMMV.

vandermolen

#5549
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2022, 07:44:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with urgency as long as it's in the right places, however, this urgency has no place in the Romanza movement and this is what happens in the Boult/BBC SO performance on ICA Classics. This kind of approach goes against what I personally believe the music is about, but, thankfully, there's plenty of other performances to choose from and YMMV.
Had to look up 'YMMV'   8)

What do you think of Bryden Thomson's recording of the 5th Symphony John? I consider it to be one of the best.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

#5550
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2022, 10:30:41 PM
Had to look up 'YMMV'   8)

What do you think of Bryden Thomson's recording of the 5th Symphony John? I consider it to be one of the best.

Oh, it's fantastic, Jeffrey, but I love the entire Thomson cycle. It's in my "Top 3" of RVW cycles along with Previn and Boult II.

vandermolen

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 21, 2022, 06:33:40 AM
Oh, it's fantastic, Jeffrey, but I love the entire Thomson cycle. It's in my "Top 3" of RVW cycles along with Previn and Boult II.
Great to know John!  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Biffo

As it seemed to be the current hot topic I listened to Thomson's recording of Symphony No 5. It is a fine performance but the acoustic occasionally seems rather reverberant.

I accumulated the Thomson cycle in piecemeal fashion over a few months and have never listened to it as a cycle. As I recall there are no weak links and some of the performances are excellent. No 4 may be my favourite of the Thomson cycle and my favourite recording of that work though Previn is imprinted on my brain after over 50 years of hearing it.

vandermolen

Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2022, 01:54:14 AM
As it seemed to be the current hot topic I listened to Thomson's recording of Symphony No 5. It is a fine performance but the acoustic occasionally seems rather reverberant.

I accumulated the Thomson cycle in piecemeal fashion over a few months and have never listened to it as a cycle. As I recall there are no weak links and some of the performances are excellent. No 4 may be my favourite of the Thomson cycle and my favourite recording of that work though Previn is imprinted on my brain after over 50 years of hearing it.
Yes, it was recorded in a church. I rather like the reverberant acoustic which adds atmosphere IMO. Actually I heard Symphony No.5 in a church locally a few weeks ago. The BBC Music Magazine's old 'Top 1000 CDs' featured Thomson's No.6 as their top choice. Tonight I watched a most interesting TV programme about the friendship between Holst and Vaughan Williams (BBC 4 I think). I much preferred it to the rather overblown documentaries on Vaughan Williams and Holst broadcast some years ago ('The Passions of Vaughan Williams' etc). By focusing just on the years before Holst's premature death I think that this programme achieved more and I found it rather moving - a case of 'less is more' I think.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2022, 01:26:17 PM
Yes, it was recorded in a church. I rather like the reverberant acoustic which adds atmosphere IMO. Actually I heard Symphony No.5 in a church locally a few weeks ago. The BBC Music Magazine's old 'Top 1000 CDs' featured Thomson's No.6 as their top choice. Tonight I watched a most interesting TV programme about the friendship between Holst and Vaughan Williams (BBC 4 I think). I much preferred it to the rather overblown documentaries on Vaughan Williams and Holst broadcast some years ago ('The Passions of Vaughan Williams' etc). By focusing just on the years before Holst's premature death I think that this programme achieved more and I found it rather moving - a case of 'less is more' I think.

I watched that too. I think I was meant to as flicking through the channels avoiding "Country File" I came across completely by accident. I didn't realise the friendship between Holst and RVW was so deep and strong. Complete opposites in both stature and temperament perhaps music itself was the force that bound them together.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on May 24, 2022, 07:38:59 AM
I watched that too. I think I was meant to as flicking through the channels avoiding "Country File" I came across completely by accident. I didn't realise the friendship between Holst and RVW was so deep and strong. Complete opposites in both stature and temperament perhaps music itself was the force that bound them together.
I came across it by accident as well Lol. I enjoyed seeing the room in St Paul's Girls School where Holst (or 'Gusty' as the girls called him) composed the Planets. I recall reading that once, when Holst was ill, Vaughan Williams took over his teaching until he recovered.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Christo

Quote from: vandermolen on May 22, 2022, 01:26:17 PM
The BBC Music Magazine's old 'Top 1000 CDs' featured Thomson's No.6 as their top choice.
Great to know, because it is my top recommendation too - especially because of its dramatic and powerful opening. I recall buying it in an Amsterdam music store led by a well-known woman, in classical music circles, who confided me that she didn't like Vaughan Williams at all. I paid full price, which was a large amount of money in those days (before internet stores took over, new CDs would cost about twice as much), and came home with a high RVW fever, for this recording really did it for me.

Enjoy the other stories told here very much as well, many thanks!
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

relm1

Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
I came across it by accident as well Lol. I enjoyed seeing the room in St Paul's Girls School where Holst (or 'Gusty' as the girls called him) composed the Planets. I recall reading that once, when Holst was ill, Vaughan Williams took over his teaching until he recovered.

Incidentally, the same job Derek Bourgeois later had sharing that same desk!  Imagine all the great music creation that desk was witness to. 

Mirror Image

Quote from: Christo on May 25, 2022, 12:25:06 AM
Great to know, because it is my top recommendation too - especially because of its dramatic and powerful opening. I recall buying it in an Amsterdam music store led by a well-known woman, in classical music circles, who confided me that she didn't like Vaughan Williams at all. I paid full price, which was a large amount of money in those days (before internet stores took over, new CDs would cost about twice as much), and came home with a high RVW fever, for this recording really did it for me.

Enjoy the other stories told here very much as well, many thanks!

That's a great anecdote, Johan! I hope you are well my friend.

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on May 24, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
I came across it by accident as well Lol. I enjoyed seeing the room in St Paul's Girls School where Holst (or 'Gusty' as the girls called him) composed the Planets. I recall reading that once, when Holst was ill, Vaughan Williams took over his teaching until he recovered.

Holst didn't see 60! The quote from Vaughan Williams at the end of the programme resonated, Jeffrey. Writing to Holst's wife "My only thoughts now what am I to do without him". 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.