Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

Fascinating.  I understand.  Maybe you are like me in that I love having Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4, op. 47 and Symphony No. 4, op. 112 as they are two very different wonderful symphonies both worth having even if I prefer the op. 112 if I had to pick one but am glad both exist as extant options.

I'm not so familiar with Prokofiev's 4th Symphony but have both versions. Will listen again.

[vandermolen]

Currently enjoying this recording of Dona Nobis Pacem.
I think that American orchestras/soloists/choirs/conductors bring something special to this music (Shaw, Spano and Abravanel come to mind) maybe it's something to do with the articulation of the Walt Whitman poetry. Certainly, Shaw's conclusion is one of the most inspiriting that I have ever heard - a marvellous performance.

[relm1]

Currently enjoying this recording of Dona Nobis Pacem.
I think that American orchestras/soloists/choirs/conductors bring something special to this music (Shaw, Spano and Abravanel come to mind) maybe it's something to do with the articulation of the Walt Whitman poetry. Certainly, Shaw's conclusion is one of the most inspiriting that I have ever heard - a marvellous performance.

Will add to my list.  I think there is quite a bit of overlap for sure - first there are many anglophiles such as Bernard Herrmann and John Williams who are very much at home in that sound space and country.  Also, the author as you pointed out has the been the source for many other composers like Howard Hanson who similarly composed a Sea Symphony.  Something I think that is very interesting is how these composers remain distinctive - they aren't just doing that RVW thing, but you can hear the influence in ways.  Like in RVW's Symphony No. 6 (1944-7) epilogue with its very unsettled shifts between e minor and e flat major into the abyss, in Herrmann's Twilight Zone theme (1959) he similarly shifts between e minor and e flat minor into...The Zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35OTm5pChkQ

[vandermolen]

Will add to my list.  I think there is quite a bit of overlap for sure - first there are many anglophiles such as Bernard Herrmann and John Williams who are very much at home in that sound space and country.  Also, the author as you pointed out has the been the source for many other composers like Howard Hanson who similarly composed a Sea Symphony.  Something I think that is very interesting is how these composers remain distinctive - they aren't just doing that RVW thing, but you can hear the influence in ways.  Like in RVW's Symphony No. 6 (1944-7) epilogue with its very unsettled shifts between e minor and e flat major into the abyss, in Herrmann's Twilight Zone theme (1959) he similarly shifts between e minor and e flat minor into...The Zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35OTm5pChkQ

I've heard the Twilight Zone theme before but enjoyed your analysis. Herrmann was a VWophile as well as an anglophile. I think that he recorded A London Symphony, but I have never heard of it anywhere. I like Hanson's Sea Symphony although, as you suggest, it is very unlike the VW work. Arthur Bliss also sets Whitman in his fine choral symphony 'Morning Heroes'.

[vandermolen]

December release:

[Karl Henning]

... I love having Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4, op. 47 and Symphony No. 4, op. 112 as they are two very different wonderful symphonies both worth having even if I prefer the op. 112 if I had to pick one but am glad both exist as extant options.

Yes.

[relm1]

Yes.

+1

[relm1]

I've heard the Twilight Zone theme before but enjoyed your analysis. Herrmann was a VWophile as well as an anglophile. I think that he recorded A London Symphony, but I have never heard of it anywhere. I like Hanson's Sea Symphony although, as you suggest, it is very unlike the VW work. Arthur Bliss also sets Whitman in his fine choral symphony 'Morning Heroes'.

Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?

Never heard of the Elgar/Whitman connection - Delius of course set Whitman in "Sea Drift".  Wand of Youth was just a pair of orchestral suites concocted in later life from early sketches.  You might be thinking of Starlight Express(?) but that was for a play based on a book by Algernon Blackwood.  I think it could be argued that Elgar was not as discerning in his choices of texts/poets to set as some/many other British composers.  The other one that I enjoy a lot are Tagore settings - some beautiful Frank Bridge and then Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony which is glorious.

[vandermolen]

Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?

Not sure about Elgar but I like the sound of 'Towers of Fables'!

[Lisztianwagner]

Thanks mate.  Whitman is a very inspiring writer.  I wonder how many others he's inspired.  My own "Towers of Fables" that premiered last year in Italy was inspired by Whitman's Passage to India, a wonderful, multi-faceted poem.  Maybe I'll dig it up and post it in the composer thread because I can talk ad nauseum about why that is a great, great poem and works at multiple levels but would not be related to this thread.  It is easy to see why composers love him.  I think Elgar was also inspired by him but can't remember exactly what music.  Was it Wand of Youth?

Holst too, in his Ode to Death he used a passage from Whitman's When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd; without forgetting his Walt Whitman Overture.

[pjme]

Holst too, in his Ode to Death he used a passage from Whitman's When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd; without forgetting his Walt Whitman Overture.

Afaik, Elgar never set poetry by Whitman to music.....

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I found some interesting info here (re settings of WW's poetry to music):  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musical_settings_of_poems_by_Walt_Whitman

PD

[Lisztianwagner]

Afaik, Elgar never set poetry by Whitman to music.....

Yes, I know, what I meant was that, besides RVW, Bliss and Delius who had been mentioned before, Holst set poetry by Whitman too.

[relm1]

Never heard of the Elgar/Whitman connection - Delius of course set Whitman in "Sea Drift".  Wand of Youth was just a pair of orchestral suites concocted in later life from early sketches.  You might be thinking of Starlight Express(?) but that was for a play based on a book by Algernon Blackwood.  I think it could be argued that Elgar was not as discerning in his choices of texts/poets to set as some/many other British composers.  The other one that I enjoy a lot are Tagore settings - some beautiful Frank Bridge and then Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony which is glorious.

Don't think I'm right about the Elgar...think it was the Delius I was thinking of!

[relm1]

Currently enjoying this recording of Dona Nobis Pacem.
I think that American orchestras/soloists/choirs/conductors bring something special to this music (Shaw, Spano and Abravanel come to mind) maybe it's something to do with the articulation of the Walt Whitman poetry. Certainly, Shaw's conclusion is one of the most inspiriting that I have ever heard - a marvelous performance.

Listened to this very fine disk tonight.  First, loved the program.  Just imagine if that was a single concert.  Wow, what a concert.  I think in the 1990's, Telarc was pretty much state of the art sonics.  This recording sounds fantastic, but the organ is too muted.  I think that's one of the reasons I love Hickox so much is the organ is so present.  Keep in mind, organs aren't just about volume - they are frequently range.  They have subharmonic frequencies that you can't even here but feel.  Similarly, they have overtone frequencies that are above hearing but add sheen to what you perceive.  These frequencies are felt not necessarily heard but that's sort of one and the same.  But a very important point not all audio systems can even play these frequencies in the first place.  Shaw's interpretation is so beautiful and sensitive to the material.  The baritone is a bit recessed but I'm being quite picky.  This is very fine music interpretation and should stand proudly on anyone's list of recordings.  Just imagine if Shaw had recorded a full cycle of RVW symphonies with these forces.  I must say, this could be the best choral version.  Not necessarily best interpretative or orchestral performance but several times I stood in awe at the quality of the vocal performance and don't think it ever reached this quality level.  This is a very solid album. 

EDIT: Just to refine a comment I made about the organ, it is there and prominent, but not in a grand way.  This could be an interpretive challenge...should the organ blend or dominate?  Some consider it the "king of instruments" and when used, the composer intends it to be heard prominently (eg: Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra) even when it's soft, its dominating.  The organ is a very wide-ranging instrument but when used in tutti settings it is meant to dominate.  Mahler 8 begins with a solo fortissimo organ.  That should be thunderous.  If a performance starts with this tepid, it's a misfire.  MTT/SFO was a misfire.  That is not an instrument meant to be hidden.  This instrument induces heart palpitations.  You're firing on all cylinders when using this grand instrument and I fully believe RVW knew this.

[JBS]

Shaw's big reputation was as a choral conductor (as a college student in Atlanta, I heard him conducting the Berlioz Requiem. I attended other ASO concerts but that's the only one of which I have any real memory, from 40+ years ago).

He probably would have been good in the Sea Symphony, but I suspect less in the rest of the cycle.

[vandermolen]

I've enjoyed reading the DNP and Shaw/organ observations. I must listen to the Barber and Bartok on the same CD!
I've had the Shaw DNP CD for a long time but had forgotten how good it is.
AFAIK Abravanel's Utah recording was the first ever for DNP. I discovered it on LP. I found a copy in a second-hand record shop in Manchester (when visiting a friend) decades ago. When I got on the train to return to London, I thought that I would check the condition of the vinyl. To my horror I discovered that, instead on containing Dona Nobis Pacem, the sleeve contained an LP of Schubert's 'Trout Quintet'
I had to take a flying leap off the train before it pulled out of the station to return to the shop!

[Karl Henning]

Shaw's big reputation was as a choral conductor (as a college student in Atlanta, I heard him conducting the Berlioz Requiem. I attended other ASO concerts but that's the only one of which I have any real memory, from 40+ years ago).

He probably would have been good in the Sea Symphony, but I suspect less in the rest of the cycle.

That's fair.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I've enjoyed reading the DNP and Shaw/organ observations. I must listen to the Barber and Bartok on the same CD!
I've had the Shaw DNP CD for a long time but had forgotten how good it is.
AFAIK Abravanel's Utah recording was the first ever for DNP. I discovered it on LP. I found a copy in a second-hand record shop in Manchester (when visiting a friend) decades ago. When I got on the train to return to London, I thought that I would check the condition of the vinyl. To my horror I discovered that, instead on containing Dona Nobis Pacem, the sleeve contained an LP of Schubert's 'Trout Quintet'
I had to take a flying leap off the train before it pulled out of the station to return to the shop!

At a charity shop, I found a LP of Karajan conducting a Sibelius symphony.  In short, the LP wasn't from the same era/pressing as the sleeve.  I've learned also to double-check whether the LP is mono or stereo.

PD

p.s.  Vaughan Williams sounds like a nice way to "start" my morning; I did already listen to some music from a baroque music program.  Must admit, I'm appreciating the tiny bit of extra heat generated by my tube equipment!