Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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Irons

Quote from: relm1 on December 31, 2022, 05:55:28 AMI listened to this recording yesterday and thought it was a very beautiful disc, highly recommended!


I greatly enjoy the Holst rarity coupling too. Placing it in between the two RVW quartets makes for an excellent program of listening.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

aukhawk

I was perusing the liner notes for the up-coming Sinfonia Antartica from Brabbins (March).


RVW Symphonies 7 & 9; Brabbins

And I was interested to read the following:
"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this - I suppose it's not very important either way and I know the wind machine is anathema to many music lovers and technology has moved on of course, but I think I feel that this is rather un-HIP.
Of course it won't be a deal-breaker if I decide I want to buy the recording.  That might depend more on the organ contribution, and the liner notes are very coy about that.  The recording venue was Watford so there is the potential for a live organ contribution, which would be quite unusual among recordings of the Antarctica, usually a 'big beast' organ is dubbed on later (eg, Manze, Boult) - but the notes and recording notes seem to have nothing to say about this.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: aukhawk on January 02, 2023, 02:41:50 AMI was perusing the liner notes for the up-coming Sinfonia Antartica from Brabbins (March).


RVW Symphonies 7 & 9; Brabbins

And I was interested to read the following:
"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this - I suppose it's not very important either way and I know the wind machine is anathema to many music lovers and technology has moved on of course, but I think I feel that this is rather un-HIP.
Of course it won't be a deal-breaker if I decide I want to buy the recording.  That might depend more on the organ contribution, and the liner notes are very coy about that.  The recording venue was Watford so there is the potential for a live organ contribution, which would be quite unusual among recordings of the Antarctica, usually a 'big beast' organ is dubbed on later (eg, Manze, Boult) - but the notes and recording notes seem to have nothing to say about this.

I think that is a mistake as a production choice.  Apart from anything else it is taking away performance choices from the musicians and literally putting it onto the sound-desk/producer.  The wind machine is an effect albeit a pretty minor one so even if the wind machine used "live" is not realistic well neither are a whole host of other musical representations of "real" things.  So why stop at the wind machine?

aukhawk

Yes, and the closing of the symphony is indeed a kind of cadenza for Wind Machine.  Obviously it is an instrument that must be played with skill and taste appropriate to the occasion, like any other.

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

relm1

Quote from: aukhawk on January 02, 2023, 02:41:50 AMI was perusing the liner notes for the up-coming Sinfonia Antartica from Brabbins (March).


RVW Symphonies 7 & 9; Brabbins

And I was interested to read the following:
"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this - I suppose it's not very important either way and I know the wind machine is anathema to many music lovers and technology has moved on of course, but I think I feel that this is rather un-HIP.
Of course it won't be a deal-breaker if I decide I want to buy the recording.  That might depend more on the organ contribution, and the liner notes are very coy about that.  The recording venue was Watford so there is the potential for a live organ contribution, which would be quite unusual among recordings of the Antarctica, usually a 'big beast' organ is dubbed on later (eg, Manze, Boult) - but the notes and recording notes seem to have nothing to say about this.

Pretty sure it is an overdub.  The booklet credits Richard Pearce for the organ and celesta. 

Albion

Quote from: relm1 on January 02, 2023, 05:59:31 AM"The wind machine called for in the score is here represented by audio samples of actual wind."

Pretty sure it is an overdub.  The booklet credits Richard Pearce for the organ and celesta. 

Hmmm, seems a bit gimmicky. I could have supplied them with audio samples of actual wind for free...

 ;D
A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it. (SG, 1922)

relm1

Quote from: Albion on January 02, 2023, 07:13:08 AMHmmm, seems a bit gimmicky. I could have supplied them with audio samples of actual wind for free...

 ;D

I don't know mate.  We haven't heard it.  I say wait and hear.   In the end, it is the interpretation that matters most.  A poor interpreation with a real wind machine isn't as important as a great interpretation without it.

vandermolen

If the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Christo

Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AMIf the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D
:-)

In the only performance of it that I heard, they used horns for the wind machine - a solution the score seems to allow.
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Roasted Swan

Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AMIf the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D

I remember this performance of "Cloudburst" from the Grand Canyon Suite made great play of using actual thunder.....!


vandermolen

Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 03, 2023, 05:32:21 AMI remember this performance of "Cloudburst" from the Grand Canyon Suite made great play of using actual thunder.....!


Oh yes! I remenber that.  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Coincidentally BBC Radio 3 featured Sinfonia Antartica in a concert broadcast this afternoon (Brabbins BBC SO - not the forthcoming Hyperion release). I only caught the last movement but it sounded like a powerful, deeply felt performance. I think it featured a wind machine at the end although the announcer, Ian Skelly, broke into it reading an extract from Scott's last diaries. I don't think that this is what the composer had in mind!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Albion

#6193
Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 10:07:04 AMCoincidentally BBC Radio 3 featured Sinfonia Antartica in a concert broadcast this afternoon (Brabbins BBC SO - not the forthcoming Hyperion release). I only caught the last movement but it sounded like a powerful, deeply felt performance. I think it featured a wind machine at the end although the announcer, Ian Skelly, broke into it reading an extract from Scott's last diaries. I don't think that this is what the composer had in mind!

Just catching up with this and that's no wind machine (there's none of the usual whirr as the contraption gets spinning - perhaps that's a good thing). The superscriptions are better left unspoken for repeated listening, however beautifully recited: they certainly get in the way of the RCA Previn which is otherwise an amazing performance. I don't quite know why Andre included them except for novelty...
A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it. (SG, 1922)

vandermolen

Quote from: Albion on January 03, 2023, 10:14:23 AMJust catching up with this and that's no wind machine (there's none of the usual whirr as the contraption gets spinning - perhaps that's a good thing). The superscriptions are better left unspoken for repeated listening, however beautifully recited: they certainly get in the way of the RCA Previn which is otherwise an amazing performance. I don't quite know why Andre included them except for novelty...
The same thing applies to the Boult Decca recording. These were made with VW in the studio. I wonder if he was aware that Gielgud would be chipping in!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

relm1

Quote from: vandermolen on January 03, 2023, 05:06:51 AMIf the score calls for a wind machine I think that is what they should use. How about a recording of actual thunder for the storm sequence in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?  ;D

Not really.  First, it's more important to understand what the composer means rather than what they say.  For example, in Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, no one uses ophicleides today.  It's a tuba now...an interpretation of what they were going for.  Similarly, RVW was very practical, and his scores frequently stated his ideal but then gave practical alternatives.  For instance, in his Sea Symphony he uses 3rd winds and organ which are all given alternatives. He frequently did this.  Some musicians state they want to know the ideal because it impacts their interpretation.  For example, if they see a bass drum but it indicates in the score that the bass drum can be replaced with the timpani, the timpanist better understands what mallets should be used to create that intended sound though it wouldn't be played by a bass drum. 

vandermolen

Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2023, 04:26:29 PMNot really.  First, it's more important to understand what the composer means rather than what they say.  For example, in Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, no one uses ophicleides today.  It's a tuba now...an interpretation of what they were going for.  Similarly, RVW was very practical, and his scores frequently stated his ideal but then gave practical alternatives.  For instance, in his Sea Symphony he uses 3rd winds and organ which are all given alternatives. He frequently did this.  Some musicians state they want to know the ideal because it impacts their interpretation.  For example, if they see a bass drum but it indicates in the score that the bass drum can be replaced with the timpani, the timpanist better understands what mallets should be used to create that intended sound though it wouldn't be played by a bass drum. 
Good point!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Roasted Swan

Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2023, 04:26:29 PMNot really.  First, it's more important to understand what the composer means rather than what they say.  For example, in Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, no one uses ophicleides today.  It's a tuba now...an interpretation of what they were going for.  Similarly, RVW was very practical, and his scores frequently stated his ideal but then gave practical alternatives.  For instance, in his Sea Symphony he uses 3rd winds and organ which are all given alternatives. He frequently did this.  Some musicians state they want to know the ideal because it impacts their interpretation.  For example, if they see a bass drum but it indicates in the score that the bass drum can be replaced with the timpani, the timpanist better understands what mallets should be used to create that intended sound though it wouldn't be played by a bass drum. 

To the highlighted text - this is true - BUT that doesn't mean he was that "happy" about the alternatives.  There is this great quote from RVW regarding alternate instruments - in this instance in the 6th Symphony; "I am tired of boiling down my work so it can be played by two banjos and a harmonium.... if they cannot run to a saxophone I fear they cannot do the symphony." 

Your example of bass drum/timpani remains a performing choice.  I understand that any studio recording is creating the illusion of a live performance but I see no reason why a recording needs to be used in this specific instance since the way it is annotated in the score is instrumental rather than as a straight sound effect.

Irons

After actually seeing the device in action  https://youtu.be/zjvWZMdllfw I find it difficult to understand a debate why a wind machine shouldn't be used. Fit in the boot of a family car.

All recordings I have heard of the Alpine Symphony use one (far as I'm aware). 
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Albion

#6199
Quote from: Irons on January 03, 2023, 11:53:20 PMAfter actually seeing the device in action  https://youtu.be/zjvWZMdllfw I find it difficult to understand a debate why a wind machine shouldn't be used. Fit in the boot of a family car.

All recordings I have heard of the Alpine Symphony use one (far as I'm aware). 

 ;D

Wind machines are great and should be used at every opportunity whether required or not: I'd pop one into the B minor Mass quite randomly just for fun...

 ;)
A piece is worth your attention, and is itself for you praiseworthy, if it makes you feel you have not wasted your time over it. (SG, 1922)