Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

New release (much cheaper in the UK at least through the Dutton Vocalion website rather than via Amazon)

[vandermolen]

Staggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.

Interesting point! I agree.

[relm1]

Staggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.

Not so much to me.  Perhaps you can give more specifics.  Exactly what Bax are you referring to and how is that similar to 1913 London Symphony?

[Roasted Swan]

Not so much to me.  Perhaps you can give more specifics.  Exactly what Bax are you referring to and how is that similar to 1913 London Symphony?

You beat me to exactly this comment!  Perhaps they share a bit of brooding atmosphere but in my book of musical definitons that's hardly a "staggering similarity"

[Maestro267]

But it was 20 years between A London Symphony and the majority of Bax's symphonies where his own soundworld became established, that's the staggering thing! Listen to the section about two-thirds of the way through the Nocturne 3rd movement that was removed from the later version we hear more often. That's extraordinarily Baxian! And I said exactly what Bax I was referring to in the initial post.

[Roasted Swan]

Staggering how much the original 1913 version of A London Symphony is prophetic of the sound world of Bax's symphonies 20 years later.

Here's what Lewis Foreman writes about the relationship between RVW/Bax and the London Symphony.  Interesting in that RVW never returned to the Symphonic Epilogue again (the last movement of No.7 although called "epilogue" is not one in the sense of being the coda to a movement).  Also interesting that the self-depecating RVW suggests that his music sounds like Bax rather than the other way around!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vepey21hdujxsovr_O82opU3m0CJbbQg/view?usp=share_link

[Irons]

You beat me to exactly this comment!  Perhaps they share a bit of brooding atmosphere but in my book of musical definitons that's hardly a "staggering similarity"

Maybe because this followed after I listened to the 'London' but I did note a similarity in the opening.

https://youtu.be/ITwXJz-LqpM

[vandermolen]

I think that the 2 minutes before the Epilogue in the original version of A London Symphony has a much more emotional quality than is usual with Vaughan Williams, which is probably why he jettisoned it in 1936, whilst in thrall to Sibelius (saying that it was 'horrible modern music' and 'like a bad hymn'). A big mistake in my view as it's my favourite part of the Symphony (Richard Hickox's too). It doesn't sound especially like Bax but has a kind-of Baxian feel to it. VW's music is usually more objective but he wears his heart on his sleeve here (IMO of course).

[relm1]

I think that the 2 minutes before the Epilogue in the original version of A London Symphony has a much more emotional quality than is usual with Vaughan Williams, which is probably why he jettisoned it in 1936, whilst in thrall to Sibelius (saying that it was 'horrible modern music' and 'like a bad hymn'). A big mistake in my view as it's my favourite part of the Symphony (Richard Hickox's too). It doesn't sound especially like Bax but has a kind-of Baxian feel to it. VW's music is usually more objective but he wears his heart on his sleeve here (IMO of course).

Hmm, I forgot this moment so will have to revisit that recording.

[vandermolen]

Hmm, I forgot this moment so will have to revisit that recording.

There are now several recordings of the 1920 edition as well as Hickox's 1913 version. They all feature the magical section before the Epilogue.

[Karl Henning]

There are now several recordings of the 1920 edition as well as Hickox's 1913 version. They all feature the magical section before the Epilogue.

At last! I've heard it. Yes, an exquisite passage! And a lesson not to cut anything so lovely.

[relm1]

Having just listened to Hickox conducting the original 1913 version of Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 2, I believe this was the superior version.  Why did he doubt himself so much?  This is wonderful and I prefer that the original version took more time with transitions which is what he excised.  None of the cuts really added to the work however I can understand why he decided to cut out 39:04 to 41:22 or so, roughly over two minutes:, it is gorgeous but one can argue superfluous and indulgent.  To me, I don't mind that at all.  He links it thematically with thorns to justify it but I can understand that sequence is borderline.  He was very, very picky to remove this sequence. 
I also just had a revelation that RVW fingerprint is the flat six.  That is the recurring motify during the Symphony No. 2 but also the opening crunch of No. 4, Santa Civitas, Symphony No. 7 and 9. This is his recurring fate motif and his mystical chord.  It is also very prominent in mystical music such as SCI-FI and fantasy.  For example, compare the first two notes of Lord of the Rings "rings theme"
The Lord of the Rings - The One Ring Theme (extended) - YouTube
With RVW Symphony No. 2 last movement: https://youtu.be/XqZdaiXRZ7k?t=2686
And https://youtu.be/XqZdaiXRZ7k?t=3424 is a perfect sci-fi trope with a mediant progression.  This is absolutely fascining because by 1913, it precedes Holst's Planets (1914-7) doing the very same thing at a slow tempo https://youtu.be/MO5sB56rfzA?t=382.   

[Albion]

At last! I've heard it. Yes, an exquisite passage! And a lesson not to cut anything so lovely.

The 1913 is also my favourite version of the "London", alright it's not as taut as the final revision but why lose so much wonderful music? I think that Hickox's recording is excellent in spite of what some critics have said about the whole "digging up the dead" concept and the recorded sound - in both cases I have no problems...

[Maestro267]

Since I got the 1913 version about 10 years ago, I don't think I've ever listened to the "standard" version of A London Symphony. I can't hear it any other way. Important parts are missing otherwise.

[vandermolen]

Interesting discussions. From my point of view I think that the rambling nature of the 1913 version perfectly fitted the sprawling nature of the city which it depicts in music. Sibelius was at the height of his popularity in Britain in the 1930s which I suspect influenced VW in his decision to make those final cuts. Bax, Boult and Bernard Herrmann argued with him about the wisdom of doing so and I think they were right. But, I'm no musician of course.

Karl what did you think of the Butterworth?

[vandermolen]

Since I got the 1913 version about 10 years ago, I don't think I've ever listened to the "standard" version of A London Symphony. I can't hear it any other way. Important parts are missing otherwise.

Totally agree

[vandermolen]

I've been critical of Pristine Audio before but I think that they've done an excellent job of remastering Goossens's 1941 Cincinnati recording of A London Symphony (1920). When this was issued many years ago on the Biddulph label it was the first time since the 1930s that most people had ever heard some of the music which VW later excised. Listening to it this morning I was surprised at my emotional reaction to the opening - it was like being transported back 50 years to my first discovery of this work (Boult's EMI LP) in my parent's flat in Earl's Court, London:

[foxandpeng]

The 1913 is also my favourite version of the "London", alright it's not as taut as the final revision but why lose so much wonderful music? I think that Hickox's recording is excellent in spite of what some critics have said about the whole "digging up the dead" concept and the recorded sound - in both cases I have no problems...

1913 Hickox. My favourite by some distance also. My first choice whenever I look for RVW 2.

[relm1]

I really liked this.  Moody and atmospheric.  What do others think? 

[vandermolen]

I really liked this.  Moody and atmospheric.  What do others think? 

At work but I'll try to listen later.
That concert was on Vaughan Williams's 105th birthday.
Boult's objective approach really suits Sinfonia Antartica - his Decca recording with VW in attendance is possibly my favourite version. The later (EMI) recording is very strong although it doesn't have quite the same urgency.

I wonder what other people's favourite recording of Sinfonia Antartica is.