Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[André]

Excellent, Jeffrey, thanks ! Goldilocks was right: never eat burning stuff. Better to let it sit a while  .

I did my homework and read the wiki article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony. The problem of the versions is well laid out, but will be of interest to musicians who can read and have the 1912 score at hand. From what I understand, the cuts are mainly in the finale (2 passages) and the Epilogue.

I'll give the Hickox version a spin and see if I can spot unfamiliar passages (they would be the most likely ones to have suffered the composer's bouts of self-criticism, I assume). OTOH it's quite likely I won't be able to identify them  . In any case, I took note of the Brabbins and note it down for a purchase next year.

Cheers !

[vandermolen]

Excellent, Jeffrey, thanks ! Goldilocks was right: never eat burning stuff. Better to let it sit a while  .

I did my homework and read the wiki article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony. The problem of the versions is well laid out, but will be of interest to musicians who can read and have the 1912 score at hand. From what I understand, the cuts are mainly in the finale (2 passages) and the Epilogue.

I'll give the Hickox version a spin and see if I can spot unfamiliar passages (they would be the most likely ones to have suffered the composer's bouts of self-criticism, I assume). OTOH it's quite likely I won't be able to identify them  . In any case, I took note of the Brabbins and note it down for a purchase next year.

Cheers !

My pleasure Andre!

I read the Wiki article too. It seems that Sir Dan Godfrey may have a lot to answer for. He made the first recording of the Symphony and decided to make a big cut in the Epilogue so that the symphony would fit on twelve 78rpm sides! What an appalling act of cultural vandalism 
VW later cut exactly the same material for the 1936 version and therefore may have been influenced by Godfrey's recording. If you listen to the 1920 or 1913 versions there is an extended section in the Lento from about 11 minutes in which you can't fail to notice is missing in 1936. Arnold Bax, Adrian Boult and Bernard Herrmann - all friend's of the composer argued with him about these cuts but to no avail.

I bought the Adrian Boult EMI boxed set on LP in 1972 and listened to A London Symphony (1936) a great deal. So it is relatively easy for me to notice which sections were there in 1913 and 1920 which had gone by the time of the final edition of the score.

[Baron Scarpia]

That CD of the 1913 version is one of the most important VW recordings ever made. It was such a pleasure to be there in London to hear the first performance of the 1913 version since c.1920. When I asked him to sign my programme for the concert Richard Hickox, the conductor, said that he agreed with me that VW had excised the best bit of the symphony - although he may, of course, have been agreeing to get rid of me.

I recall reading in the notes to the Chandos recording that permission was only given for the recording. The RVW's widow relent and allow a concert?

[vandermolen]

I recall reading in the notes to the Chandos recording that permission was only given for the recording. The RVW's widow relent and allow a concert?

Yes, you are quite right, she did. As far as I'm aware it was performed twice. All credit to her for giving permission. She was at the concert I attended. There has only been one recording of the 1913 version.

[Baron Scarpia]

Yes, you are quite right, she did. As far as I'm aware it was performed twice. All credit to her for giving permission. She was at the concert I attended. There has only been one recording of the 1913 version.

And who could imagine how little time Richard Hickox had left, at that point...

[Mirror Image]

I really, really enjoyed the 1920 version and I plan on listening to Brabbins' excellent recording again tomorrow. I suppose I have collected some thoughts now and can share them: one of the things that made me perk up in this Brabbins performance was his attention to the atmosphere of the symphony and how it continued throughout the performance. From the first measure, you can tell this is a going to be a special performance due to Brabbins' attention to the detail in this introduction. I might be going out on a limb here, but dare I say it's the finest performance of this symphony I've heard (and I've heard A LOT of performances through the years). I vastly prefer this one to the Hickox, which I know are different versions, but, still, I'm mightily impressed with this latest Hyperion offer. I do hope that Brabbins gets around to conducting the complete cycle, but I'm not going to let wishful thinking get the best of me.

[Baron Scarpia]

Yes, you are quite right, she did. As far as I'm aware it was performed twice. All credit to her for giving permission. She was at the concert I attended. There has only been one recording of the 1913 version.

Now I'm tempted to listen to this one instead.

[asin]B0000241EM[/asin]

[vandermolen]

And who could imagine how little time Richard Hickox had left, at that point...

Yes, that's very sad. I saw him conduct great performances of 'Pilgrim's Progress' (semi-staged) and Symphony 9 shortly before his untimely death. I'm sorry that the performance of No.9 was not recorded as it was one of the gaps in his Chandos series. His young son was 'The Wooductter's Boy' in Pilgrim's Progress.

[vandermolen]

Now I'm tempted to listen to this one instead.

[asin]B0000241EM[/asin]

Probably my favourite recording of the 1936 version - very atmospheric. The scherzo was controversially slow but I find a unique warmth about Barbirolli's interpretation and he was close to the composer. I think that he was originally going to share the EMI symphony cycle with Boult but only recorded symphonies 2 and 5 for EMI before he died c.1970 and so Boult ended up recording the whole cycle.

[vandermolen]

I really, really enjoyed the 1920 version and I plan on listening to Brabbins' excellent recording again tomorrow. I suppose I have collected some thoughts now and can share them: one of the things that made me perk up in this Brabbins performance was his attention to the atmosphere of the symphony and how it continued throughout the performance. From the first measure, you can tell this is a going to be a special performance due to Brabbins' attention to the detail in this introduction. I might be going out on a limb here, but dare I say it's the finest performance of this symphony I've heard (and I've heard A LOT of performances through the years). I vastly prefer this one to the Hickox, which I know are different versions, but, still, I'm mightily impressed with this latest Hyperion offer. I do hope that Brabbins gets around to conducting the complete cycle, but I'm not going to let wishful thinking get the best of me.

Yes, it's an excellent release. I've been listening to the Yates recording  (partly because I don't know where I've put the Brabbins version  ) which was the first modern recording of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I enjoy this version as well and its coupling the Concerto for Two a Pianos, which I prefer to the one piano version. The only previous version of the 1920 version was from Eugene Goossens with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, recorded in early 1941. It only used the 1920 version as those were the only band parts available at the time. I would imagine that it was, to some extent, recorded as a tribute to London during the Blitz of World War Two. It has recently been restored and released by 'Klassic Haus' with the composer's own recording of Symphony 4.

I've also heard an even more curious version of A London Symphony with Koussevitsky conducting - also during World War Two. It is of the 1936 version but includes something completely different to any other version. Koussevitsky brings back the famous chimes of 'Big Ben' at the very end of the symphony . I couldn't believe it when I first heard it as this included material not even composed by Vaughan Williams! Having said that, in a way, I found it rather moving in its wartime context.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, it's an excellent release. I've been listening to the Yates recording  (partly because I don't know where I've put the Brabbins version  ) which was the first modern recording of the 1920 edition of A London Symphony. I enjoy this version as well and its coupling the Concerto for Two a Pianos, which I prefer to the one piano version. The only previous version of the 1920 version was from Eugene Goossens with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, recorded in early 1941. It only used the 1920 version as those were the only band parts available at the time. I would imagine that it was, to some extent, recorded as a tribute to London during the Blitz of World War Two. It has recently been restored and released by 'Klassic Haus' with the composer's own recording of Symphony 4.

I've also heard an even more curious version of A London Symphony with Koussevitsky conducting - also during World War Two. It is of the 1936 version but includes something completely different to any other version. Koussevitsky brings back the famous chimes of 'Big Ben' at the very end of the symphony . I couldn't believe it when I first heard it as this included material not even composed by Vaughan Williams! Having said that, in a way, I found it rather moving in its wartime context.

I have the Yates performance somewhere. I'll have to dig it out at some point, but I have the Brabbins blueprinted in my mind at this point and so, at this juncture, personal bias has an ugly way of rearing it's head as it was this performance that made me finally appreciate A London Symphony in all its' glory. I always liked the work, but now I love it. I still wouldn't rate it as highly as it's successor, but it's a gorgeous symphony with loads of textural touches that make it even more enticing. In regard to Concerto for Two Pianos, for years, I preferred this two-piano version until recently when I was blown away by the Howard Shelley/Thomson performance on Chandos. Shelley's pianism in conjunction with Thomson's sympathetic accompaniment (+ Chandos' sumptuous sonics) made this a real ear-opener. The reason I prefer the one-piano version is because it's uncluttered and there's nothing to get in the piano's way. The orchestration also is much clearer when there's less 'fighting room' so to speak. Of course, I do admire the two-piano version, but I feel nowadays that it's better with just the one piano. There's also a great performance with Ashley Wass/Judd with the Liverpudlians on Naxos that's worth checking out (if you haven't heard it already).

[Mirror Image]

Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.

[Biffo]

Cross-posted from the ‘Purchases’ thread:

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.

I own a paperback edition 1971 (OUP).  It is a fairly comprehensive survey of RVW's work and as he was so prolific it doesn't go into great detail and mainly concentrates on the circumstances of the composition and reception of the work rather than technical detail. The 6th symphony, for example is covered in just 4 pages. The book is organised in decades rather than genre and to some extent is a musical biography of RVW.

The hard back first edition (1964) had a complete and detailed catalogue of all RVW's works, a list of folk songs he collected, a bibliography and discography (now out of date). These are all ommited from the paperback edition.

[Roasted Swan]

Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Does anyone own this book? I bought it with hopes of some deeper discussion on works like Flos campi, Symphonies Nos. 4-6, and Job.

There are not many books that deal in any great analytical detail with RVW's music.  I like Wilfred Meller's overview - Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion.  In terms of listing/discussing the music A E F Dickinson's "Vaughan Williams" is quite comprehensive but I sometimes wonder if he likes the music much!  Hugh Ottaway wrote a study specifically about the symphonies but I have not read that.

[Mirror Image]

There are not many books that deal in any great analytical detail with RVW's music.  I like Wilfred Meller's overview - Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion.  In terms of listing/discussing the music A E F Dickinson's "Vaughan Williams" is quite comprehensive but I sometimes wonder if he likes the music much!  Hugh Ottaway wrote a study specifically about the symphonies but I have not read that.

I own a paperback edition 1971 (OUP).  It is a fairly comprehensive survey of RVW's work and as he was so prolific it doesn't go into great detail and mainly concentrates on the circumstances of the composition and reception of the work rather than technical detail. The 6th symphony, for example is covered in just 4 pages. The book is organised in decades rather than genre and to some extent is a musical biography of RVW.

The hard back first edition (1964) had a complete and detailed catalogue of all RVW's works, a list of folk songs he collected, a bibliography and discography (now out of date). These are all ommited from the paperback edition.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Much appreciated.

[kishnevi]

On another topic
Listening tonight to Symphony No. 6*, perhaps primed by the jazzy saxophone solo, I thought I caught a Gershwin quote in the Scherzo.  Am I imagining that or is it really there?

*For the record, Haitink /LPO

[Mirror Image]

On another topic
Listening tonight to Symphony No. 6*, perhaps primed by the jazzy saxophone solo, I thought I caught a Gershwin quote in the Scherzo.  Am I imagining that or is it really there?

*For the record, Haitink /LPO

I'm not sure about a Gershwin quote, but he wrote that particular part in memory of an English jazz musician who was killed during a Nazi air raid (?). I put the question mark, because I may very well be misremembering. Vandermolen probably knows better than I.

[kyjo]

On another topic
Listening tonight to Symphony No. 6*, perhaps primed by the jazzy saxophone solo, I thought I caught a Gershwin quote in the Scherzo.  Am I imagining that or is it really there?

*For the record, Haitink /LPO

I read here that the sax solo in the Scherzo subtly quotes Steven Foster's Swanee River (the apparent backstory is fascinating): http://americansymphony.org/ralph-vaughan-williams-symphony-no-6/

[Biffo]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Much appreciated.

The Cambridge Companion to Vaughan Williams has some fairly detailed analysis of the symphonies and it discusses symphonies 4-6 together, highlighting similarities and differences but again the symphonies are only two chapters of the book and the other works you are interested in only get brief mentions. It is also quite expensive; I went for the Kindle edition, which is a lot cheaper, but I know not everybody likes e-books.

https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Companion-Vaughan-Williams-Companions/dp/0521162904/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513593145&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+companion

I haven't read AEF Dickinson's study of RVW but I do have his book on Berlioz and there he also gives an impression of not liking his subject very much.

[Mirror Image]

The Cambridge Companion to Vaughan Williams has some fairly detailed analysis of the symphonies and it discusses symphonies 4-6 together, highlighting similarities and differences but again the symphonies are only two chapters of the book and the other works you are interested in only get brief mentions. It is also quite expensive; I went for the Kindle edition, which is a lot cheaper, but I know not everybody likes e-books.

https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Companion-Vaughan-Williams-Companions/dp/0521162904/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513593145&sr=1-1&keywords=vaughan+williams+companion

I haven't read AEF Dickinson's study of RVW but I do have his book on Berlioz and there he also gives an impression of not liking his subject very much.

Ah yes, I do own that Cambridge book, but it seems that it's short on information about the actual music itself as you mention. As far as I'm concerned, his symphonies are his most important contribution to music (not that I don't think his other music isn't important of course) and it would be nice to have a study on each individual symphony.