Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

I defer to Jeffrey, whose knowledge of the score is likely better than my own;  but my sense (subject to verification) is that the texts are superscriptions, rather than narration, per se.  So, while I love the texts for what they are, and appreciate their relevance to the music, I find recorded insertions of the text (nodding towards the Sarge here) hectoring/lecturing 

You are quite right Karl as is Biffo.
Yet, VW was presumably there when Boult recorded the work for Decca as he attended all those sessions other than No.9 as he'd died on the morning of the recording. The fact that the work derives from film music probably explains the confusion over the superscriptions.

[Mirror Image]

The texts are superscriptions. As I said earlier, movements 3 & 4 are to be played without a break, something that can't happen if they are interrupted by a narrator/speaker. In the score (p 99), the last bar of Movement 3 has the instruction ' Segue No 4' .

The score can be found as a link from this Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_antartica#External_links. The article also has a brief discussion of the superscriptions.

Barbirolli gave the first performance and also made the first recording - he has no narrator. I find the spoken superscriptions intrusive and don't think they wear well, however distinguished the speaker.

Meanwhile, jumping from another thread, I have been listening to 'On Wenlock Edge' from Ian Bostridge with Bernard Haitink and the LPO - I had forgotten I had this version. It is beautifully played but I still prefer the chamber version - for me, it is more direct, the full orchestra softens the impact.

I defer to Jeffrey, whose knowledge of the score is likely better than my own;  but my sense (subject to verification) is that the texts are superscriptions, rather than narration, per se.  So, while I love the texts for what they are, and appreciate their relevance to the music, I find recorded insertions of the text (nodding towards the Sarge here) hectoring/lecturing 

You are quite right Karl as is Biffo.
Yet, VW was presumably there when Boult recorded the work for Decca as he attended all those sessions other than No.9 as he'd died on the morning of the recording. The fact that the work derives from film music probably explains the confusion over the superscriptions.

All information that was new to me! You learn something new everyday. I always just assumed that the texts in Sinfonia antartica were supposed to be for a narrator, but it makes me proud, but also relieved, to see that this wasn't the case after all. And to think all these years I thought there was supposed to be a narrated part!

[Biffo]

You are quite right Karl as is Biffo.
Yet, VW was presumably there when Boult recorded the work for Decca as he attended all those sessions other than No.9 as he'd died on the morning of the recording. The fact that the work derives from film music probably explains the confusion over the superscriptions.

I don't want to labour the point but were the superscriptions recorded separately and dubbed in? Even so, RVW must have heard the finished product. None of my usual sources have anything to say on the recording.

[vandermolen]

I don't want to labour the point but were the superscriptions recorded separately and dubbed in? Even so, RVW must have heard the finished product. None of my usual sources have anything to say on the recording.

I'm sure you're right Biffo - I can't imagine that John Gielgud was in the recording studio with Boult and VW but VW must have been aware of the finished product.

[vandermolen]

Re: Sinfonia Antartica

From the biography of VW by A E F Dickinson publ. 1963, five years after the composer's death:

'In a current gramophone record these extracts, all the work of poets except for Scott, are recited with studied restraint by Sir John Gielgud, but, whether or not this had the approval or consent of the composer, it appears to me a most disturbing procedure...the harnessing of each of the five movements to these divergent scraps of verse is more provocative than directive'.

[Moonfish]

Interesting! I must admit that I prefer the work without the narration/introductions. Perhaps it is a different experience in association with the film?

[vandermolen]

Interesting! I must admit that I prefer the work without the narration/introductions. Perhaps it is a different experience in association with the film?

I like both versions and just to confuse things Dutton have recently released 'The Complete Scott Music' from the film - one of their best sellers apparently.

[Biffo]

Re: Sinfonia Antartica

From the biography of VW by A E F Dickinson publ. 1963, five years after the composer's death:

'In a current gramophone record these extracts, all the work of poets except for Scott, are recited with studied restraint by Sir John Gielgud, but, whether or not this had the approval or consent of the composer, it appears to me a most disturbing procedure...the harnessing of each of the five movements to these divergent scraps of verse is more provocative than directive'.

Not really sure what is meant by the highlighted text. I haven't read Dickinson's book so wouldn't want to judge it on one quote but I do have his book on the works of Berlioz. I haven't read it for years but, if I recall correctly, he doesn't let a work go by without some kind of backhanded compliment or other kind of inference that he is, in some way, smarter than the composer.

The Dutton disc (Yates/RSNO) you mention in your other post is excellent. It claims to be the complete score (79'48) and to have several world premiere recordings. I also have the Chandos disc (Gamba/BBC Philharmonic)  which is the 'premiere recording in this version' (41'12)!

[vandermolen]

Not really sure what is meant by the highlighted text. I haven't read Dickinson's book so wouldn't want to judge it on one quote but I do have his book on the works of Berlioz. I haven't read it for years but, if I recall correctly, he doesn't let a work go by without some kind of backhanded compliment or other kind of inference that he is, in some way, smarter than the composer.

The Dutton disc (Yates/RSNO) you mention in your other post is excellent. It claims to be the complete score (79'48) and to have several world premiere recordings. I also have the Chandos disc (Gamba/BBC Philharmonic)  which is the 'premiere recording in this version' (41'12)!

I don't think that Mr Dickinson approves of the spoken extracts! He is quite negative about the work generally as far as I could see from a brief perusal of the relevant section late last night. I see what you mean about the 'backhanded compliment' approach!

[Roasted Swan]

The Dickinson book is a real oddity.  Extensive and detailed and covering (some) works not mentioned elsewhere which would imply an enthusiasm on the part of the author for the subject.  Yet - as others have mentioned - this seems to be a version of "tough love" with shortcomings and "failings" highlighted as much as triumphs.  But then again Imogen Holst did much the same in her survey of her father's music - with large tracts of it dismissed as not that worthwhile.  I think in that instance it was done in a mis-guided belief that if she was too 'soft' on his work it would be judged as nepotism.  Bantock's daughter wrote a biography of her father which went to the opposite extreme with every work a towering masterpiece - rather hilariously rose-tinted.

[Biffo]

Hugh Ottaway in the short guide to the Symphonies (Ariel Music) also disapproves of recordings with spoken superscriptions but he puts the blame for the practice on record companies; he cites Boult's EMI recording as an example of a 'very fine' example of of one without them.

Has the practice died out now? I have eight viable recordings of the work, none with a speaker. Previn used to have Ralph Richardson but he was removed for the CD reissue; I have the original version but on a cassette, currently unplayable.

This discussion reminded me again of 'An Oxford Elegy' (briefly mentioned earlier). I was too lazy to dig the Wilcocks LP out of the vaults so I listened to the Centaur recording on Spotify instead - Robert Taylor conducting the Chorus Civitas & Chamber Orchestra with Gerard Killebrew as narrator. It is decades since I listened to the Willcocks version and this newer version didn't endear me to the work. The orchestral opening is magical but it goes rapidly downhill after that.

[vandermolen]

The Dickinson book is a real oddity.  Extensive and detailed and covering (some) works not mentioned elsewhere which would imply an enthusiasm on the part of the author for the subject.  Yet - as others have mentioned - this seems to be a version of "tough love" with shortcomings and "failings" highlighted as much as triumphs.  But then again Imogen Holst did much the same in her survey of her father's music - with large tracts of it dismissed as not that worthwhile.  I think in that instance it was done in a mis-guided belief that if she was too 'soft' on his work it would be judged as nepotism.  Bantock's daughter wrote a biography of her father which went to the opposite extreme with every work a towering masterpiece - rather hilariously rose-tinted.

Your observation on Bantock's daughter's approach made me laugh. I think I have that book. That approach reminded me of 'The Story of the Second World War' by Katherine Savage in which she, more or less, argues that Britain won the Second World War on it's own with the USA and USSR getting in the way.

[vandermolen]

Hugh Ottaway in the short guide to the Symphonies (Ariel Music) also disapproves of recordings with spoken superscriptions but he puts the blame for the practice on record companies; he cites Boult's EMI recording as an example of a 'very fine' example of of one without them.

Has the practice died out now? I have eight viable recordings of the work, none with a speaker. Previn used to have Ralph Richardson but he was removed for the CD reissue; I have the original version but on a cassette, currently unplayable.

This discussion reminded me again of 'An Oxford Elegy' (briefly mentioned earlier). I was too lazy to dig the Wilcocks LP out of the vaults so I listened to the Centaur recording on Spotify instead - Robert Taylor conducting the Chorus Civitas & Chamber Orchestra with Gerard Killebrew as narrator. It is decades since I listened to the Willcocks version and this newer version didn't endear me to the work. The orchestral opening is magical but it goes rapidly downhill after that.

I think that there is a version of Sinfonia Antartica conducted by Raymond Leppard which includes vast chunks of Scott's diaries which were not even quoted by Vaughan Williams! I really like 'An Oxford Elegy' but only narrated by John Westbrook or Jeremy Irons. Jack May sounds like a Sargent-Major barking out instructions.

[relm1]

What are your thoughts on this recording?


I think it is quite beautiful but just on the first track!  This appears to be the Serenade for SATB soli and chorus but a very fine version. 

[vandermolen]

What are your thoughts on this recording?


I think it is quite beautiful but just on the first track!  This appears to be the Serenade for SATB soli and chorus but a very fine version.

On order but hasn't arrived yet. Released today I think in UK.

I especially like the craggy and poetic Piano Concerto by Vaughan Williams - one of his most underrated works IMHO.

[Christo]

What are your thoughts on this recording?


I think it is quite beautiful but just on the first track!  This appears to be the Serenade for SATB soli and chorus but a very fine version.

Did any of you hear this one already? Would be glad to learn your verdict. 

[Biffo]

Did any of you hear this one already? Would be glad to learn your verdict. 

I bought this album as a lossless download several weeks ago and posted on each work as I listened to them. All the performances were good but none a first choice, except perhaps the Oboe Concerto but I don't have much to compare it with or listen to it very often.

[vandermolen]

Did any of you hear this one already? Would be glad to learn your verdict. 

Well, despite the inclusion of 'Serenade to Music' ( ) I enjoyed this CD. I'm inclined to agree with Biffo above, although I enjoyed all the performances and it makes an interesting programme. I have my doubts about the Oboe Concerto, although it remains by far my favourite concerto for the instrument (the one that Rutland Boughton composed for his daughter is excellent as well). Listening to the first two movements brought to mind an unfair (IMHO) comment made about Bliss's 'Meditations on a Theme by John Blow' - 'amiable but rambling' and yet, when we got to the eloquent last movement, which contains the most memorable material, I felt guilty about having such thoughts. It may be 'off-cuts' from Symphony 5 but it must have brought spiritual sustenance to its first audience in Blitzed-out London in 1944. The last two works, however, are in a different league (in my view). The poetic and ethereal 'Flos Campi' is beautifully recorded and performed - a lovely work. I thought that the Piano Concerto was given an especially powerful performance, linking it to the massive Busoni Piano Concerto which was apparently an influence on Vaughan Williams, notwithstanding poetic moments of great beauty, as in the central movement of the work.

As for 'Serenade to Music'' I'm afraid that I found it just as twee and self-congratulatory as before - possibly, along with 'The Wasps Overture' (fortunately not included on the CD) my least favourite work by Vaughan Williams. But, don't let that put you off acquiring this fine CD by Canadian forces.

[Maestro267]

Hugh Ottaway in the short guide to the Symphonies (Ariel Music) also disapproves of recordings with spoken superscriptions but he puts the blame for the practice on record companies; he cites Boult's EMI recording as an example of a 'very fine' example of of one without them.

Has the practice died out now? I have eight viable recordings of the work, none with a speaker. Previn used to have Ralph Richardson but he was removed for the CD reissue; I have the original version but on a cassette, currently unplayable.

I've never heard a recording where the superscriptions interrupt the music. The Naxos recording (Bournemouth/Bakels I think) has the spoken superscriptions, but on separate tracks at the end of the disc. I'm curious though...did the composer decide that they needed to be spoken at all?

[Karl Henning]

I've never heard a recording where the superscriptions interrupt the music.

Several generations will call you blessed    0:)