Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

Oh, neat (for lack of better words)!!  What a great story!  And thank you so much for sharing it.  I'll have to look into the Novak CD (as I enjoy what music I have heard by him....and have a weak spot for Czech composers' music) and the Vaughan Williams one sounds quite interesting too.  I've heard of Barry Wordsworth before but don't know anything about him and his recordings.  When are the Vaughan Williams' ones from?

How did you decide on the artwork for the covers?  I'll have to look them up.  In any event, how wonderful that they listened to your suggestions!  I'm sure that with your background in history and love of music that it must have been a fun journey/experience to think of what would be fitting and appropriate.     And, wow, they liked your suggestions for albums!  How wonderful!  You must have been walking on air when you heard that they decided to go ahead with them!     Regarding the Lark, does someone read the poem before the performance of it or is it a case of Rossetti's poem being printed in the liner notes?  I'm guessing that someone reads it (which would be sweet)?

Final note:  I've heard of Miaskovsky (and recall that he wrote MANY symphonies)...will have to look into his music at some point in time (finding time right now is a bit challenging).   

Best wishes,

PXYZ...D

Dear Pohjola's Daughter 
Thank you again.
Ego Trip Part 2:
You have to hear the Novak. It has three fabulous works - the South Bohemian Suite, which I much prefer to the more famous Slovak Suite. It was written in 1938 as the war clouds gathered over Czechoslovakia - I find it very moving. Also 'In the Tatras Mountains' - as much a spiritual as a physical journey (Novak liked climbing mountains) and above all the only recording of 'Eight Nocturnes for Voice and Orchestra' - the last one 'Christchild's Lullabye' is one of the most moving things I have heard - you have to hear it  . Ideally late at night with a glass of wine. The VW recordings are 1990/1991. The eponymous poem by George Meredith is read by Irish actress Niamh Cusack. In the Musicweb review that you read Rob Barnett commented that it was a shame that it was on the same track as The Lark Ascending so you have to hear the poem first but I do not think that is a great problem (well, not compared to Brexit, anyway).
As to the images. Please understand that Alto reject 99% of my suggestions for either music to reissue or appropriate cover images. However I had a couple of successes. Some years ago I decided to train as a (Gestalt) counsellor. This involved a residential weekend in Bournemouth on the south coast of England and home of a fine orchestra. Opposite the hotel was an art gallery in which I came across a painting of 'Terrified Sheep with Thunderstorm Approaching, Picardy'. I thought that this was a wonderful metaphor for my life generally but also a suitable image for a CD cover for either Vaughan Williams's Symphony 6 or Walton's Symphony 1. When I'm walking in the countryside or looking at paintings I often associate the scenes in front of me with music. Amazingly Alto then got in contact with the museum and did a deal so they could use their paintings for CD covers (Russell-Cotes Museum, Bournemouth). As for Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905' I simply chose an on-line image which I didn't think had been used before and it was used. So, yes it is great fun to do this stuff. I didn't chose the Novak image.

PS the thunderstorm painting is amazing but you only get part of it on the front of the Walton CD.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Dear Pohjola's Daughter 
Thank you again.
Ego Trip Part 2:
You have to hear the Novak. It has three fabulous works - the South Bohemian Suite, which I much prefer to the more famous Slovak Suite. It was written in 1938 as the war clouds gathered over Czechoslovakia - I find it very moving. Also 'In the Tatras Mountains' - as much a spiritual as a physical journey (Novak liked climbing mountains) and above all the only recording of 'Eight Nocturnes for Voice and Orchestra' - the last one 'Christchild's Lullabye' is one of the most moving things I have heard - you have to hear it  . Ideally late at night with a glass of wine. The VW recordings are 1990/1991. The eponymous poem by George Meredith is read by Irish actress Niamh Cusack. In the Musicweb review that you read Rob Barnett commented that it was a shame that it was on the same track as The Lark Ascending so you have to hear the poem first but I do not think that is a great problem (well, not compared to Brexit, anyway).
As to the images. Please understand that Alto reject 99% of my suggestions for either music to reissue or appropriate cover images. However I had a couple of successes. Some years ago I decided to train as a (Gestalt) counsellor. This involved a residential weekend in Bournemouth on the south coast of England and home of a fine orchestra. Opposite the hotel was an art gallery in which I came across a painting of 'Terrified Sheep with Thunderstorm Approaching, Picardy'. I thought that this was a wonderful metaphor for my life generally but also a suitable image for a CD cover for either Vaughan Williams's Symphony 6 or Walton's Symphony 1. When I'm walking in the countryside or looking at paintings I often associate the scenes in front of me with music. Amazingly Alto then got in contact with the museum and did a deal so they could use their paintings for CD covers (Russell-Cotes Museum, Bournemouth). As for Shostakovich Symphony 11 'The Year 1905' I simply chose an on-line image which I didn't think had been used before and it was used. So, yes it is great fun to do this stuff. I didn't chose the Novak image.

PS the thunderstorm painting is amazing but you only get part of it on the front of the Walton CD.

Vandermolen,

I don't recall hearing the South Bohemian Suite before now but do recall (some time ago) listening online to a performance of In the Tatras Mountains.  Did a bit of quick digging and saw that I have the Slovak Suite on Supraphon with Talich.  I remember some time ago wanting to purchase a CD on Virgin of Novak's music, but it's now long out of print.  Will try and be patient and clever and see if I might be able to find a copy at a good price.  Will have to keep an eye out for Alto CDs now!

Ah, I see that I was confusing it (The Lark Ascending poem) in my mind with a poem called The Skylark by Rossetti!  I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of the one by George Meredith.   

Well, your batting average (re covers and music) if far, far better than most people's!   

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Going back to Vaughan Williams, I did just listen to his Pastoral Symphony with Bryden Thomson and enjoyed it much better than I had remembered I'm pleased to report! 

[vandermolen]

Vandermolen,

I don't recall hearing the South Bohemian Suite before now but do recall (some time ago) listening online to a performance of In the Tatras Mountains.  Did a bit of quick digging and saw that I have the Slovak Suite on Supraphon with Talich.  I remember some time ago wanting to purchase a CD on Virgin of Novak's music, but it's now long out of print.  Will try and be patient and clever and see if I might be able to find a copy at a good price.  Will have to keep an eye out for Alto CDs now!

Ah, I see that I was confusing it (The Lark Ascending poem) in my mind with a poem called The Skylark by Rossetti!  I'll have to see if I can locate a copy of the one by George Meredith.   

Well, your batting average (re covers and music) if far, far better than most people's!   

Best wishes,

PD

p.s.  Going back to Vaughan Williams, I did just listen to his Pastoral Symphony with Bryden Thomson and enjoyed it much better than I had remembered I'm pleased to report!

PD a number of us here think that the Bryden Thompson VW symphony cycle is underrated and I'm glad that you enjoyed 'A Pastoral Symphony'. Thank you again for your interest in my CD note-writing and cover-selecting adventures.

[vandermolen]

I was interested to read in a magazine yesterday that the comedian Bob Mortimer chose 'A Sea Symphony' (Andrew Davis recording) as his one classical choice during his recent appearance on 'Desert Island Discs'.

[aukhawk]

Going for duration obviously.  Most Desert Island choices are only 3 minutes long.  Perhaps he hadn't come across Satie's Vexations.

[vandermolen]

Going for duration obviously.  Most Desert Island choices are only 3 minutes long.  Perhaps he hadn't come across Satie's Vexations.

Good point!

[Papy Oli]

If nobody minds, I have copied the conversation on RVW from the WAYLTN thread back here if you fancy continuing it here:

With my recent foray in British orchestral music, I seem to be more receptive to RVW's orchestral music than on previous attempts. I might have to revisit his symphonies sooner rather than later (I have the Handley cycle and Andrew Davis'.). Only the 2nd symphony really stuck with me (that Lento is one of my most favourite symphonic movements), all the rest was just same-y  0:)

High time, I re-assess them.

No.6 is my favourite but I love them all. You might be interested in the 1913 or 1920 versions of A London Symphony, especially for the deeply moving section which VW (mistakenly in my view) excised from the score in 1936, just before the Epilogue of the last movement. The Handley and Davis sets do not include either version.

I have the Hickox 1913 version on the shelf too but only listened to it once or twice maybe. Will have to revisit that one more carefully for the differences.

Re: Hickox VW - it's about a minute and a half of very poignant music shortly before the end, which is completely missing from the more familiar version.

Starting the RVW symphonies...from the end...No.9 it is.

[asin]B0014DAI9U[/asin]

I generally love that set, well balanced, well paced, very good recording quality, interpretations that don't go out on a limb. It lets the music speak for itself, eloquently.

Maybe I have a problem with the music itself  I listened to the 9th then to Job on the same CD and it still just merges in an overall "sameness", a few soaring moments here and there, all merging together. I'll revisit the other symphonies in the Davis' and Handley's in any case and see how it goes with the rest.

I'm struggling to specifically remember the 9th from that set. Most recently I listened to A London Symphony (#2) and enjoyed it a lot.

I agree on the 2nd, it's the only one that clicked for me, none of the others yet.

Vaughan Williams in general, or this set in particular?

In general 3 and 5 are the only RVW symphonies that click for me. I know I "should" like 2 and 4 and 6, but....not yet...

His symphonies in general. I do enjoy some of his others works (Lark ascending, Tallis fantasia, Wasps overture, etc) but the symphonies, bar the second, just don't register.

I see. Reading this site a person might get the impression the V-W is universally beloved, putting Mozart and Beethoven to shame.

I liked the symphonies the last time I listened to them (excepting 1 and 7, which are banished from my listening rotation) that's all I know. I remember liking them, but I have only the vaguest memory of what each symphony is like, excepting 2 and 3, which I listened to very recently.

as a general thing, my relation to RVW's symphonies is similar...only I like them all equally. But aside from the choral symphonies, tney all blend together for me unless I am actually listening to one of them.  It did take two tries for the Antartica, but I can't recall I single thing I have heard from RVW that I don't like. And most of them I like a lot.  I just don't have specific memory of the music.

That's what can be bugging me sometimes, wondering what I am missing in those works, it's not as if they are obtuse and unapproachable...just not memorable somehow or too meandering... Yet, it is part of the fun to re-explore them now and again to see if the perceptions change...

Maybe i should go to the RVW thread and open a can of worms and ask for an idiosyncratic cycle that differs completely from Handley and Davis 

In response to JBS :

That's a good halfway point 

The idiosyncratic cycle is almost universally agreed to be Haitink on Warner (EMI). Not "British" enough, or something to that effect. It is less encumbered by tradition allowing Haitink to re-think the works. It was the first cycle I listened to and it gave me my initial interest in V-W.

Here is my crib sheet

1. Singing
2. Most like a conventional symphony/symphonic poem
3. Spiritual
4. Harsh
5. New-agey
6. Intense
7. Wind machine
8. Idiosyncratic
9. Idiosyncratic Volume II

My general impression is that V-W starts out earnest in the early symphonies, and towards the end it is more and more that he is toying with the orchestra to see what charming effects he can create. You might find that Haitink de-meanderifies the later works to some extent, which may be bad or good, depending on your viewpoint.

Love the RVW conversation here; I feel like most of the comments... and I've often felt that the amount of Vaughan-Williams Symphony Cycles I own ( is a direct result not of my love but impotent struggle to understand the composer... so that my perception of how great I SHOULD find him and how great I actually find him may  be less at odds with each other.

I like 5 and 4 the most. Especially 5. Pretty common opinion I think. 2 I also like quite a lot, but the others less so. I do like 3 and 6 but I don't have a strong sense of personality from them. Each Mozart Concerto is like a person, distinct. These lack that. The others not so much. 7 is goodish film music. 8 has interesting passages. 9 I have no recollection of despite having heard often. 1 is bad music.

[vandermolen]

The thing about No.6 as has been said before is that it combines elements of the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 thus creating a most disturbing synthesis which I fine riveting. I was also interested in Stephen Johnston's suggestion that the repeating two notes at the end of the symphony are like an unresolved 'amen' and of course the symphony ends on the 'wrong' note, drifting into nothingness.....

I was delighted to be watching the quiz show 'University Challenge' yesterday on catch-up and the music question featured musical extracts written by composers who had more or less lost their hearing. They played an extract from Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony which, unsurprisingly none of the young students knew - although I would have done at their age  0:) ( I told you my wife said I am a 'show-off'  ). I think that No.9 is my other favourite VW symphony. It has a granitic, monolithic quality to it and those looming defiant chords at the end are extraordinary.

[Irons]

The thing about No.6 as has been said before is that it combines elements of the violence of No.4 with the spiritual qualities of No.5 thus creating a most disturbing synthesis which I fine riveting. I was also interested in Stephen Johnston's suggestion that the repeating two notes at the end of the symphony are like an unresolved 'amen' and of course the symphony ends on the 'wrong' note, drifting into nothingness.....

I was delighted to be watching the quiz show 'University Challenge' yesterday on catch-up and the music question featured musical extracts written by composers who had more or less lost their hearing. They played an extract from Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony which, unsurprisingly none of the young students knew - although I would have done at their age  0:) ( I told you my wife said I am a 'show-off'  ). I think that No.9 is my other favourite VW symphony. It has a granitic, monolithic quality to it and those looming defiant chords at the end are extraordinary.

Kicking myself at not recognising the Fauré piece.

A bit left field but the 8th Symphony is so untypical of RVW that it may appeal to a listener not into the composer. I find it an intriguing work. I do not find the symphonies similar at all. In fact there is one for every mood.

[aukhawk]

Maybe I have a problem with the music itself  I listened to the 9th then to Job on the same CD and it still just merges in an overall "sameness", a few soaring moments here and there, all merging together. I'll revisit the other symphonies in the Davis' and Handley's in any case and see how it goes with the rest.

Plunging into RVW from the direction of the 9th Symphony and Job is just ... perverse  unfortunate.

I was delighted to be watching the quiz show 'University Challenge' yesterday on catch-up and the music question featured musical extracts written by composers who had more or less lost their hearing. They played an extract from Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony which, unsurprisingly none of the young students knew - although I would have done at their age  0:) ( I told you my wife said I am a 'show-off'  ). I think that No.9 is my other favourite VW symphony. It has a granitic, monolithic quality to it and those looming defiant chords at the end are extraordinary.

I spotted it as VW from the style and colour and the 9th because it was unfamiliar (I never listen to the 9th) - but it was news to me about his hearing loss.  Comical in the extreme that the students didn't spot Beethoven though! 

[Papy Oli]

Plunging into RVW from the direction of the 9th Symphony and Job is just ... perverse  unfortunate.

I've survived.

Reading the early pages of this thread, i noticed a mention that Bernstein did a 4th, which incidentally I have in his Sony symphony box, but with no recollection at all. That will be in the listening queue today.

[vandermolen]

Kicking myself at not recognising the Fauré piece.

A bit left field but the 8th Symphony is so untypical of RVW that it may appeal to a listener not into the composer. I find it an intriguing work. I do not find the symphonies similar at all. In fact there is one for every mood.

I didn't get the Faure either although I recognised that it sounded like his 'Pavane'. I also like Vaughan Williams's Symphony 8 with its somewhat magical opening movement - especially in Previn's recording.

[vandermolen]

I've survived.

Reading the early pages of this thread, i noticed a mention that Bernstein did a 4th, which incidentally I have in his Sony symphony box, but with no recollection at all. That will be in the listening queue today.

Bernstein's 4th is excellent IMHO. So is the earlier Mitropolous version which I prefer to the composer's own recording. Berglund is best of all I think.

[Irons]

Bernstein's 4th is excellent IMHO. So is the earlier Mitropolous version which I prefer to the composer's own recording. Berglund is best of all I think.

Have you heard Berglund's 6th? I find his Sibelius (Bournemouth) a bit stodgy but the RVW 6th makes me wish he recorded more.

[Papy Oli]

Bernstein's 4th is excellent IMHO.

I enjoyed the last 2 movements but it felt long winded to get to it 

[Sergeant Rock]

A bit left field but the 8th Symphony is so untypical of RVW that it may appeal to a listener not into the composer. I find it an intriguing work. I do not find the symphonies similar at all. In fact there is one for every mood.

I second this opinion. The 8th is quite different than any of his other symphonies and, I think, quite magical.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I enjoyed the last 2 movements but it felt long winded to get to it 

I almost think I should load my bazooka  The Fourth is the symphony that fired my interest in RVW. But I'll refrain from blasting you because, well, the last two movements are the ones that hooked me.

Sarge

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

If nobody minds, I have copied the conversation on RVW from the WAYLTN thread back here if you fancy continuing it here:

[snipped]

Interesting to read the give-and-take on that thread. I've always felt each VW symphony was distinctive, and it would be hard to confuse one with any other. That's because each one, as they follow in sequence, sounds effectively like a repudiation of the previous one.

However, another way to look at it would be to group them by similarity. Thus I find 4 and 6 to be similar, also 3 and 5, and 1 and 7. I could see confusing 4 with 6, but certainly not either with 3 or 5. And so on. The oddballs are the last two symphonies, which don't seem to fit into my schema at all. 8 sounds like a rewrite of Hindemith's Symphonia Serena, while 9 is still a puzzler, though I enjoy hearing it from time to time.

[vandermolen]

Have you heard Berglund's 6th? I find his Sibelius (Bournemouth) a bit stodgy but the RVW 6th makes me wish he recorded more.

Indeed I have! I have the LP and the later HMV and EMI CD releases in different permutations. I think that it is one of the few successful performances of Symphony 6 - very Sibelian I think. I like his Sibelius Bournemoth Kullervo Symphony and Symphony 3 and his Tapiola with the New Philharmonia.

[vandermolen]

I second this opinion. The 8th is quite different than any of his other symphonies and, I think, quite magical.

Sarge

I agree with the 'magical' description - I especially feel this in the way that Previn's performance opens.

I've just repeated myself - never mind.