Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

The Piano Concerto was written for Harriet Cohen and she gave the first performance on February 1st 1933 with Boult conducting. RVW was worried the orchestration made it difficult for the soloist to be heard and gave Boult permission to thin it out as necessary. It was these concerns that led to the two-piano version. Some months later, after some revisions,  HC gave another performance in Strasbourg with Hermann Scherchen conducting.

RVW sent HC a letter discussing how long she could have exclusive rights but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of her being possessive. It seems few other pianists were keen to take the work up. It wasn't well-received by the critics who found it too percussive though Bartok, who heard it in Strasbourg admired it.

I've just been looking through the book of letters by Vaughan Williams and it is clear in one of them that Harriet Cohen was a bit miffed by the two piano version being arranged without any consultation with her. It does seem that she was being a bit possessive about the concerto as VW pointed out to her that most soloists are happy with the premiere performance and that HC had had a monopoly over the work for a year.

[cilgwyn]

Oh,I don't know?! I still like the Enigma Variations! I should switch to the Elgar thread to reply,though! Gerontius is the,great work,that I can't stand! I almost agree with what Hurwitz has to say about it,on his website!! The excerpts recorded,"live",in the twenties,with Elgar conducting,are quite moving,though! The Violin and Cello Concertos do nothing for me,either! A sad case,aren't I?!! I'd far rather listen to the Violin Concertos of Moeran or Brian. At this point,I've got to admit I'm not a big fan of violin concertos;but there are a couple I enjoy! Oh,and Holbrooke's,"Grasshopper"! (Again,not the one in Kung Fu!! ).

[vandermolen]

Oh,I don't know?! I still like the Enigma Variations! I should switch to the Elgar thread to reply,though! Gerontius is the,great work,that I can't stand! I almost agree with what Hurwitz has to say about it,on his website!! The excerpts recorded,"live",in the twenties,with Elgar conducting,are quite moving,though! The Violin and Cello Concertos do nothing for me,either! A sad case,aren't I?!! I'd far rather listen to the Violin Concertos of Moeran or Brian. At this point,I've got to admit I'm not a big fan of violin concertos;but there are a couple I enjoy! Oh,and Holbrooke's,"Grasshopper"! (Again,not the one in Kung Fu!! ).

I agree with you cilgwyn about Moeran and Brian. However one of the great 'unsung' violin concertos, and I use those terms deliberately is the one by William Alwyn. Do you know it? If not you must hear it. There are even two recordings on Chandos and Naxos, both equally good in my opinion.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Oh,I don't know?! I still like the Enigma Variations! I should switch to the Elgar thread to reply,though! Gerontius is the,great work,that I can't stand! I almost agree with what Hurwitz has to say about it,on his website!! The excerpts recorded,"live",in the twenties,with Elgar conducting,are quite moving,though! The Violin and Cello Concertos do nothing for me,either! A sad case,aren't I?!! I'd far rather listen to the Violin Concertos of Moeran or Brian. At this point,I've got to admit I'm not a big fan of violin concertos;but there are a couple I enjoy! Oh,and Holbrooke's,"Grasshopper"! (Again,not the one in Kung Fu!! ).

I can't get enough VVW, I can't stand Elgar, in any piece. The music is so dense, like it can't breath. The best example of this I can give is the beginning of the violin concerto, the main theme is just stuffy to the bone. Then it goes on for 50 minutes. Probably the most "bearable" is the Cello Concerto.

[Mirror Image]

I can't get enough VVW, I can't stand Elgar, in any piece. The music is so dense, like it can't breath. The best example of this I can give is the beginning of the violin concerto, the main theme is just stuffy to the bone. Then it goes on for 50 minutes. Probably the most "bearable" is the Cello Concerto.

If Elgarian were here, he'd most certainly set you straight. You can bank on that.

[cilgwyn]

  Yes,I'm sure he would! But I'm not knocking him! He was the first major English composer for two hundred years (Although,I prefer Parry & Stanford!). That said! Falstaff,is another one,that doesn't do much for me! I remember someone describing the comic bits as 'cartoon' music! I bought the Boult cd of the Enigma Variations,yesterday;so I wouldn't have to listen to it! (On the Barbirolli cd) I do like his Pomp & Circumstance Marches;with which,Boult's recording,is paired. And like,vandermolen;particularly No 4!

[cilgwyn]

His light music is lovely,though! And I do,tend to,like Elgar,when he's doing the conducting! I think,his own recordings of his music,are the best,ever! Imho!! His Introduction & Allegro,Serenade are nice,too. And,I love the Wand of Youth & Nursery Suites. Particularly,as recorded by Elgar and Bryden Thomson! But,Gerontius & those Concertos?!!

[vandermolen]

His light music is lovely,though! And I do,tend to,like Elgar,when he's doing the conducting! I think,his own recordings of his music,are the best,ever! Imho!! His Introduction & Allegro,Serenade are nice,too. And,I love the Wand of Youth & Nursery Suites. Particularly,as recorded by Elgar and Bryden Thomson! But,Gerontius & those Concertos?!!

Yes, I've always enjoyed Elgar's recordings of his own works - especially the two symphonies. I originally had them on World Record Club LPs. I liked the Prelude to The Kingdom as well. VW was considered to be a not very good conductor although the few existing recordings suggest otherwise.

[Irons]

If Elgarian were here, he'd most certainly set you straight. You can bank on that.

There is, me! I am quite shocked at the apathy towards Elgar here. I'm not sure I am the right person to set anyone straight or  have any wish to do so. I love Elgar and my life would be poorer without his music.

[Biffo]

There is, me! I am quite shocked at the apathy towards Elgar here. I'm not sure I am the right person to set anyone straight or  have any wish to do so. I love Elgar and my life would be poorer without his music.

Ditto

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

There is, me! I am quite shocked at the apathy towards Elgar here. I'm not sure I am the right person to set anyone straight or  have any wish to do so. I love Elgar and my life would be poorer without his music.

I'm sure Elgarian would agree that no one is required to like Elgar's music. His extremely interesting commentary was a major factor in my coming to appreciate Elgar's Violin Concerto (along with putting Kennedy's recording aside and listening to Hilary Hahn). Same for the Violin Sonata.

[cilgwyn]

Yes, I've always enjoyed Elgar's recordings of his own works - especially the two symphonies. I originally had them on World Record Club LPs. I liked the Prelude to The Kingdom as well. VW was considered to be a not very good conductor although the few existing recordings suggest otherwise.

Yes,I enjoy all Elgar's recordings. I even like his acoustic recordings! I love listening to them!
I must add! The Enigma Variations is one of my favourite orchestral works by a British composer. I like his symphonies. His Suites. The Introduction & Allegro,Serenade,Cockaigne,In the South,the Pomp & Circumstance Marches,The Starlight Express & all his lighter music. I just don't enjoy the choral works,the Violin & Cello Concertos. And Falstaff,much. Although,I do like it,in the composers own recording! (I didn't know I had to like everything!)

As to Vaughan Williams! I'm with vandermolen on the Serenade & Wasps! The operas have some lovely music;but they aren't him at his best,imho! I recently 'downgraded' them,by taking them out of their cases,and putting the cd's in a box,to save some room (rather than take them to a charity shop!) ! I quite like The Poisoned Kiss,for some reason!! And I like The Pilgrims Progress! I've always avoided Riders to the Sea,like the blazes;because I don't like operas with unhappy endings!!

Conversely,I don't think there's anything I,don't like,by Holst!!

[vandermolen]

Yes,I enjoy all Elgar's recordings. I even like his acoustic recordings! I love listening to them!
I must add! The Enigma Variations is one of my favourite orchestral works by a British composer. I like his symphonies. His Suites. The Introduction & Allegro,Serenade,Cockaigne,In the South,the Pomp & Circumstance Marches,The Starlight Express & all his lighter music. I just don't enjoy the choral works,the Violin & Cello Concertos. And Falstaff,much. Although,I do like it,in the composers own recording! (I didn't know I had to like everything!)

As to Vaughan Williams! I'm with vandermolen on the Serenade & Wasps! The operas have some lovely music;but they aren't him at his best,imho! I recently 'downgraded' them,by taking them out of their cases,and putting the cd's in a box,to save some room (rather than take them to a charity shop!) ! I quite like The Poisoned Kiss,for some reason!! And I like The Pilgrims Progress! I've always avoided Riders to the Sea,like the blazes;because I don't like operas with unhappy endings!!

Conversely,I don't think there's anything I,don't like,by Holst!!

'The Pilgrim's Progress' is possibly VW's greatest work and I think that 'Riders to the Sea' is one of his finest, with its echoes of the Sixth Symphony. I was lucky to see a live (semi-staged)version of 'Riders to the Sea' a year or two ago - I think it's a marvellous work and I rarely listen to any opera. Seeing 'Pilgrim's Progress' on my birthday some years ago was one of the great musical experiences of my life. I'm with on Holst, by the way, cilgwyn. Never heard 'The Poisoned Kiss'.

[vandermolen]

I rather like this historic CD featuring Boult's first recording of the 6th Symphony (with original Scherzo), unusually combined with the film music.

[cilgwyn]

The Poisoned Kiss was,of course,VW's attempt to emulate Gilbert & Sullivan! Unfortunately,like every British composer who had tried to copy their formula,he didn't have a Gilbert!! Holst's opera,The Perfect Fool,is very similar,in some ways;with all the hocus-pocus,magical elements! And I suppose,you could Cyril Scott's The Alchemist;of which excerpts were recorded,some years ago;by the BBC. Oh,and Holbrooke's ,The Enchanter (also,known as,The Wizard). Britten had the dramatic instinct that VW,Delius and all the other,also-rans,British operas,lacked! Peter Grimes feels so tightly structured,after listening to,all the efforts,of those,other,composers. The only thing he doesn't have,which some of those failed opera composers have,in buckets;is warmth!! I find his operas interesting to listen to. I can't say,I love any of them,though! Strangely enough,If I had to pick out one,opera composed,in the years,before Britten put British opera on the map;it might actually be The Tigers,by Havergal Brian?!!  A strange,eccentric,surreal,dream like opera;which seems to unfold,via some,strange,underlying,logic. I often wish it could be staged! I think it would arouse some interest?!! I would also single out,Holst's,rather beautiful,Savitri. A concise little opera. Although,the subject matter ensures that I don't listen to it,that often!! But my favourite opera,before Britten (and after Purcell's,sole,true opera)and besides,The Tigers;is probably,Delius' A Village Romeo & Juliet. For all it might lack,in dramatic cohesion;it has an odd,slightly mysterious atmosphere,which appeals to me. I don't listen to it,that often! But I do enjoy it,when I hear it! And yes,I know it,bores the socks off,some (allot of?) people!!

[cilgwyn]

And it does have a gloomy ending!

[Irons]

The Poisoned Kiss was,of course,VW's attempt to emulate Gilbert & Sullivan! Unfortunately,like every British composer who had tried to copy their formula,he didn't have a Gilbert!! Holst's opera,The Perfect Fool,is very similar,in some ways;with all the hocus-pocus,magical elements! And I suppose,you could Cyril Scott's The Alchemist;of which excerpts were recorded,some years ago;by the BBC. Oh,and Holbrooke's ,The Enchanter (also,known as,The Wizard). Britten had the dramatic instinct that VW,Delius and all the other,also-rans,British operas,lacked! Peter Grimes feels so tightly structured,after listening to,all the efforts,of those,other,composers. The only thing he doesn't have,which some of those failed opera composers have,in buckets;is warmth!! I find his operas interesting to listen to. I can't say,I love any of them,though! Strangely enough,If I had to pick out one,opera composed,in the years,before Britten put British opera on the map;it might actually be The Tigers,by Havergal Brian?!!  A strange,eccentric,surreal,dream like opera;which seems to unfold,via some,strange,underlying,logic. I often wish it could be staged! I think it would arouse some interest?!! I would also single out,Holst's,rather beautiful,Savitri. A concise little opera. Although,the subject matter ensures that I don't listen to it,that often!! But my favourite opera,before Britten (and after Purcell's,sole,true opera)and besides,The Tigers;is probably,Delius' A Village Romeo & Juliet. For all it might lack,in dramatic cohesion;it has an odd,slightly mysterious atmosphere,which appeals to me. I don't listen to it,that often! But I do enjoy it,when I hear it! And yes,I know it,bores the socks off,some (allot of?) people!!

A most interesting post. Opera is an area of music I steer well clear of, although funnily enough the one time I did attend an opera - ENO The Magic Flute - I enjoyed the evening enormously. Opera by an English composer has an advantage, they are singing in English! I have had my finger on the trigger quite a few times for two works -  one you mention, the Delius A Village Romeo and Juliet and also Hugh the Drover by RVW. I do worry I don't have the attention span for opera even if, as the two mentioned, the subject matter appeals. I agree Britten's music can lack warmth, I see this as a positive not a negative, but for opera, and arguably Britten is the greatest English opera composer, he would be a step too far for a novice.

[cilgwyn]

I must admit to being a bit thick here;in that,I don't really bother with the librettos! A cursory glance at the plot;and an occasional peek,at the libretto (if there is one?) to see where I am,or what's going on,and that's about it! I usually find opera librettos,pretty tedious,to plough through! I just like the sounds the singer's and the orchestra are making. Also,if I sat there,with my head in a libretto,nothing much would ever get done! Particularly,if I'm going through a pile of the things!! Yes,I think you're right about Britten? Peter Grimes is pretty tuneful,and approachable,though;for an opera of that period! Tuneful enough for me to,even sing,some bits! It's quite good fun,trying to imitate,Pears,while doing so! I like the excerpts,that were released on 78's (and latterly,on cd;and I believe,Lp?) particularly. I think it's my favourite recording. If only they could have recorded it complete! I also like the,accompanying,abridged,Lucretia! I think my favourite Britten operas are,The Turn of the Screw,The Rape of Lucretia and Death in Venice;with all those interesting sonorities. With Britten,even when the vocal line is declamatory,the interesting timbres and sonorities maintain my attention.

[vandermolen]

Some appropriate listening for Easter Sunday as the fist of the Five Mystical Songs is 'Easter', although my favourites are the beautiful 'Love Bade Me Welcome' and the inspiriting 'Antiphon', which was one of my first encounters with VW's music after my mother was given it on a King's College, Cambridge sampler LP one Christmas (my brother and I flew into the living room from opposite ends of my parent's flat to find out what the music was). This is another example of an excellent recording by Bryden Thomson featuring two of my favourite Vaughan Williams works (posted on the listening thread as well):

[knight66]

I must admit to being a bit thick here;in that,I don't really bother with the librettos! A cursory glance at the plot;and an occasional peek,at the libretto (if there is one?) to see where I am,or what's going on,and that's about it! I usually find opera librettos,pretty tedious,to plough through! I just like the sounds the singer's and the orchestra are making. Also,if I sat there,with my head in a libretto,nothing much would ever get done! Particularly,if I'm going through a pile of the things!! Yes,I think you're right about Britten? Peter Grimes is pretty tuneful,and approachable,though;for an opera of that period! Tuneful enough for me to,even sing,some bits! It's quite good fun,trying to imitate,Pears,while doing so! I like the excerpts,that were released on 78's (and latterly,on cd;and I believe,Lp?) particularly. I think it's my favourite recording. If only they could have recorded it complete! I also like the,accompanying,abridged,Lucretia! I think my favourite Britten operas are,The Turn of the Screw,The Rape of Lucretia and Death in Venice;with all those interesting sonorities. With Britten,even when the vocal line is declamatory,the interesting timbres and sonorities maintain my attention.

I do find lots of sly humour and warmth, compassion and plenty of emotion as well as visceral pain in Peter Grimes. That is expressed in the music as well as the words. I think of it as an opera for grown-ups. The libretto is poetic and dramatic and it does not indulge in endless repetitions. I also suggest it is perfectly fine for the inexperienced opera goer. It depends what the ear can cope with. For me the best version is Davis with Vickers and Harper.

Poor RVW, I will have to think of something to say about his music.

Mike