Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Christo]

This is why I have trouble making friends!

Not here! 

I'll never understand, for the life of me, why English music is so often viewed so exclusively and negatively here in the States.

I'ld say it's even worse here. I recently recalled the story of how I bought the Chandos CD with Thomson / RVW 6 in a prominent Amsterdam music store back in 1989 - and was treated with open disapproval by the owner. She was a well-known voice on classical radio at the time, but she could not hide her contempt for what she called "English music". Not coincidentally I never heard any RVW in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw (but have to confess I somehow missed Norrington's performance of the Pastoral in 2003) and was forced to escape to Rotterdam - one of the last things in life you want to do - to hear at least a couple of symphonies). 

[vandermolen]

I think that Britain still suffers from its undeserved reputation as 'The Land without Music'. Maybe that was true in the 19th Century where there was a lack, perhaps, of 'Great' British composers but certainly not after Elgar. I guess that between Purcell and Elgar there are few great British composers, much as I like some works by Parry and a few by Stanford, and, of course Handel was German. I'm happy to be proved wrong in this.

[Christo]

of course Handel was German. I'm happy to be proved wrong in this.

No, he was. He was even called Händel. 

Not sure if there were 'great' German composers between Bach and Hindemith either; although I happen to like a chap called Beethoven, and even some Mendelssohn. 

[vandermolen]

No, he was. He was even called Händel. 

Hahaha 

[Christo]

Found this 1987 radio broadcast of conductor John Hopkins with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra (NOT the Teldec recording with Andrew Davis and the BBC SO, as suggested).  Interestingly, they take the Finale - Andante tranquillo even SLOWER than the extremely slow Manze, as discussed here before. At no less than 15:26 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/v/S-ADxVhzMbI&list=UU6K8IQTxx-FVBHgjSIvZO1A&index=3

[Roasted Swan]

I have not heard the Manze No.9 but it raises an interesting point - to what degree should a conductor "obey" a composer's metronome markings?  Looking at my copy of the score RVW is very careful and detailed with specific tempi markings.  Its not a case of "how slow is andante or fast allegro"  He puts "Andante Tranquillo dotted crochet/quarter note = 60" with numerous equally specific adjustments throughout.  I can only assume that Manze is markedly 'off' those markings.  Presumably he feels his vision is closer to the essence/spirit of the music than the composer.

My feeling is that the performer probably should strive to follow instructions when they are as explicit as this - not slavishly - but surely they are giving a very strong indication of how RVW heard the piece in his own head.....

[André]

I have not heard the Manze No.9 but it raises an interesting point - to what degree should a conductor "obey" a composer's metronome markings?  Looking at my copy of the score RVW is very careful and detailed with specific tempi markings.  Its not a case of "how slow is andante or fast allegro"  He puts "Andante Tranquillo dotted crochet/quarter note = 60" with numerous equally specific adjustments throughout.  I can only assume that Manze is markedly 'off' those markings.  Presumably he feels his vision is closer to the essence/spirit of the music than the composer.

My feeling is that the performer probably should strive to follow instructions when they are as explicit as this - not slavishly - but surely they are giving a very strong indication of how RVW heard the piece in his own head.....

You are right in the sense that the composer's detailed instructions MUST be authoritative, at least on paper. OTOH an interpreter's job is to convey also the 'second degree' behind the markings/indications and may be justified to try another way, a more winding one probably, thus revealing a different perspective. As long as he/she is honest and humble enough about it. Celibidache was famous for those interpretative 'insights', but totally lacked humility.

[aukhawk]

Found this 1987 radio broadcast of conductor John Hopkins with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra (NOT the Teldec recording with Andrew Davis and the BBC SO, as suggested).  Interestingly, they take the Finale - Andante tranquillo even SLOWER than the extremely slow Manze, as discussed here before. At no less than 15:26 minutes:

What a good find!  What a shame the middle movements are not well represented.
Last-movement timings are always a bit unreliable as they may include variable amounts of silence and/or applause at the end.  The actual timing for Manze (to audible end of diminuendo) is 15:01 and for Hopkins here, 15:22 - no, 15:17 - but same difference really.
[edited to correct Hopkins time]

[Christo]

What a good find!  What a shame the middle movements are not well represented. Last-movement timings are always a bit unreliable as they may include variable amounts of silence and/or applause at the end.  The actual timing for Manze (to audible end of diminuendo) is 15:01 and for Hopkins here, 15:22 - same difference really.

Yep, a real find. Actually, only the first movement is missing. Both the second - Andante sostenuto - and third - Scherzo: Allegro pesante - are there, both also much slower than any other recording, at 9:30 and 6:11 respectively. (Confusingly, the audio is followed immediately by parts of the Andante in this Youtube audio, but the first 6:11 minutes of that section are the complete Scherzo).

What triggered my interest is this "slowness", comparable to Manze's, but even slower. Both performances - the Manze and this Hopkins - are markedly different in this respect from all other recordings, and I'm still trying to find out what it means. To start with, it makes for an intriguing, new listening experience with this wonderful, elusive symphony. 
https://www.youtube.com/v/7osr5s-Qzt0 https://www.youtube.com/v/XwNECN9F9Ms [in reality: Scherzo - Allegro pesante, 06:11 minutes long]

[relm1]

dotted quarter = 60 is extremely slow.  That's even slow for largo.  The feel of the music is rhapsodic sort of like Lark Ascending so metronome isn't as important as the right feel hence a wide range of tempi.  To me, I feel the ache and longing is lost at fast tempo in this symphony.

[Christo]

dotted quarter = 60 is extremely slow.  That's even slow for largo.  The feel of the music is rhapsodic sort of like Lark Ascending so metronome isn't as important as the right feel hence a wide range of tempi.  To me, I feel the ache and longing is lost at fast tempo in this symphony.

To me, too. For now, these two "extremely slow" performances convince me more than most of the other readings, especially in the mysterious Finale. I'm still hoping for someone to do a similar trick with the Sixth, which could also benefit from such an approach IMO.

[vandermolen]

Found this 1987 radio broadcast of conductor John Hopkins with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra (NOT the Teldec recording with Andrew Davis and the BBC SO, as suggested).  Interestingly, they take the Finale - Andante tranquillo even SLOWER than the extremely slow Manze, as discussed here before. At no less than 15:26 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/v/S-ADxVhzMbI&list=UU6K8IQTxx-FVBHgjSIvZO1A&index=3

It is a great performance of the finale I must say. Possibly the best I have heard. A very searching and visionary performance. Is that the same John Hopkins who conducted Lilburn? I think that Boult told VW that he thought that the ending of the symphony came on too abruptly (I disagree) and suggested, rather cheekily, that VW compose some more music in the last movement. VW who, of course, died shortly afterwards said that he'd think about it but in the meantime Boult could perform it more slowly. So maybe the old man would have approved of John Hopkins performance. By the way, the underrated Abravanel recording of Symphony 6 is very slow in the finale.
It's recently been reissued very cheaply:

[relm1]

To me, too. For now, these two "extremely slow" performances convince me more than most of the other readings, especially in the mysterious Finale. I'm still hoping for someone to do a similar trick with the Sixth, which could also benefit from such an approach IMO.

Intriguing prospect about a slower 6.  I assume you mean only the finale?  What do you have in mind?  What is your perfect recorded ending other than it's not slow enough?

[André]

It is a great performance of the finale I must say. Possibly the best I have heard. A very searching and visionary performance. Is that the same John Hopkins who conducted Lilburn? I think that Boult told VW thatbhevthought that the ending of the symphony came on too abruptly (I disagree) and suggested, rather cheekily, that VW compose some more music in the last movement. VW who, of course, died shortly afterwards said that he'd think about it but in the meantime Boult could perform it more slowly. So maybe the old man would have approved of John Hopkins performance. By the way, the underrated Abravanel recording of Symphony 6 is very slow in the finale.
It's recently been reissued very cheaply:

It's on the way! Thanks for the tip, I wasn't aware it had been reissued. 

[vandermolen]

It's on the way! Thanks for the tip, I wasn't aware it had been reissued. 

Great! Fabulous CD Andre. Also, on LP, it was my introduction to DNP. I like the unique coupling of the two works and always liked Abravanel's Utah recordings (VW, Sibelius, Bloch etc). Look forward to hearing your view of it.

[aukhawk]

Yep, a real find. Actually, only the first movement is missing. Both the second - Andante sostenuto - and third - Scherzo: Allegro pesante - are there, both also much slower than any other recording, at 9:30 and 6:11 respectively. (Confusingly, the audio is followed immediately by parts of the Andante in this Youtube audio, but the first 6:11 minutes of that section are the complete Scherzo).

Yes - I see.  That Andante is really nice too.  The Sherzo transfer is unfortunately not up to snuff - sounds as though it's arrived via a maladjusted cassette machine.
The Hopkins Finale duration corrected again (also in my post upthread) to 15:17 - there is also a few seconds of white space at the start of the YouTube that I had overlooked.  But it also sounds fractionally truncated at both ends, so 15:18 or 15:19 might be truer of the actual performance.

[Christo]

Intriguing prospect about a slower 6.  I assume you mean only the finale?  What do you have in mind?  What is your perfect recorded ending other than it's not slow enough?

No, sorry, not the Finale (that doesn't grow in effect with it - as shown by the very slow (almost 15 minutes) performance with the USSR SSO under Rozhdestvensky) but the opening movement that could be done with more drama than usual. For that reason I prefer Bryden Thomson over all others, he's the only one who dares to open with a slower pace, the drama more convincingly enfolding IMHO.

Yes - I see.  That Andante is really nice too.  The Sherzo transfer is unfortunately not up to snuff - sounds as though it's arrived via a maladjusted cassette machine.
The Hopkins Finale duration corrected again (also in my post upthread) to 15:17 - there is also a few seconds of white space at the start of the YouTube that I had overlooked.  But it also sounds fractionally truncated at both ends, so 15:18 or 15:19 might be truer of the actual performance.

Agreed, both the Andante and the Finale are admirably done here and this performance really forced me to listen anew to this symphony. 

[vandermolen]

The Andrew Davis cycle (in mini versions of the original cover images) has been reissued through this interesting set:

[Roasted Swan]

The Andrew Davis cycle (in mini versions of the original cover images) has been reissued through this interesting set:

At the moment on Amazon UK some 3rd party seller has the Davis/RVW/Warner cycle complete for £5.41 plus P&P and someone else the pair of Elgar Symphonies for £1.04!!  This latest Warner regurgitation seems pretty pricey pushing 40 quid......

[vandermolen]

At the moment on Amazon UK some 3rd party seller has the Davis/RVW/Warner cycle complete for £5.41 plus P&P and someone else the pair of Elgar Symphonies for £1.04!!  This latest Warner regurgitation seems pretty pricey pushing 40 quid......

Good point although there's a lot in there.