Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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Mark G. Simon

Quote from: drogulus on January 13, 2008, 08:23:09 AM
     I think the saxophones in the 6th (and the 9th) are wonderful. They also have a leading role in Job. Perhaps RVW intended the profane associations produced in the listeners mind. He must have had his reasons. Anyway, they sound great.

I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 22, 2008, 05:13:56 AM
I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.

Hugo Alfvén made haunting use of the soprano saxophone in his Third Swedish Rhapsody. No jazz or profane associations in sight (or within hearing).
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

drogulus



     I didn't mean profane as bad, just popular or common as opposed to sacred, for instance.
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paulb

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 22, 2008, 05:13:56 AM
I don't have any profane associations with the saxophone. I think it's a wonderful instrument and am charmed that RVW made such effective use of it.

The 6th , as well as the 4th are powerful testimonies of Vaughan Williams ability to tap into modern modalities of disonnance. I happen to love all the syms, even the 1st , which some over at amazon chat board has dubbed a  'dud', 'un-listenable"...but i wonder if the poem 's content (mentions God)has something underlying about these strong resistances... ::). The finale of the 1st does lose some steam, but the work is engaging and the Walt Whitman poem is very imaginative. i love the poem.

You guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!

i caught it on the radio one day and was very impressed,  VW's has the Tuba playing  his usual lovely passages. There's 2 or 3 recordings, can't recall the excellent one i heard.
I need to order that concerto myself, and soon.
The finest complete set IMHO is the Thomson/London. I've heard various others, the Thomson is my definitive favorite. The London SO  played their hearts out for Thomson. when a  orch really likes the conductor, this atmosphere of comradiere shows up in the recording. Like what the Columbia did for Bruno Walter.
Also   love Barbirolli's 5th/Philharmonia.
Did once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending.  NPR plays it all the time

vandermolen

Quote from: paulb on January 22, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
The 6th , as well as the 4th are powerful testimonies of Vaughan Williams ability to tap into modern modalities of disonnance. I happen to love all the syms, even the 1st , which some over at amazon chat board has dubbed a  'dud', 'un-listenable"...but i wonder if the poem 's content (mentions God)has something underlying about these strong resistances... ::). The finale of the 1st does lose some steam, but the work is engaging and the Walt Whitman poem is very imaginative. i love the poem.

You guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!

i caught it on the radio one day and was very impressed,  VW's has the Tuba playing  his usual lovely passages. There's 2 or 3 recordings, can't recall the excellent one i heard.
I need to order that concerto myself, and soon.
The finest complete set IMHO is the Thomson/London. I've heard various others, the Thomson is my definitive favorite. The London SO  played their hearts out for Thomson. when a  orch really likes the conductor, this atmosphere of comradiere shows up in the recording. Like what the Columbia did for Bruno Walter.
Also   love Barbirolli's 5th/Philharmonia.
Did once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending.  NPR plays it all the time

Agree with you and nice to see someone appreciating Bryden Thomson, a much underrated conductor in my view.  His VW No 6 was BBC Music Guide 1000 best CDs choice for this work. Barbirolli's Philharmonia Symphony 5 (EMI) is the best, although you must hear the newly released versions of this symphony conducted by Vaughan Williams himself, a wonderful discovery and Koussevitsky's great sibelian interpretation. My favourite Tuba Concerto is that played by John Fletcher with Andre Previn although versions conducted by Thomson and Barbirolli are very good also.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

karlhenning

Quote from: paulb on January 22, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
I happen to love all the syms . . . .

Splendid, Paul!

Quote from: paulbYou guys ought to consider hearing VW's concerto for...TUBA!

I have;  it's agreeable listening, pretty 'workaday Vaughan Williams' IMO.  But one understands why tuba players are grateful for some good lit, and this is a good concerto.

Quote from: paulbDid once sort of, , but not now do i like the Lark Ascending.  NPR plays it all the time.

I well understand the phenomenon, Paul!  Don't throw the good music baby out with the numbskulled programming bathwater!  ;)

paulb

Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2008, 03:51:07 AM
Splendid, Paul!

I have;  it's agreeable listening, pretty 'workaday Vaughan Williams' IMO.  But one understands why tuba players are grateful for some good lit, and this is a good concerto.

I well understand the phenomenon, Paul!  Don't throw the good music baby out with the numbskulled programming bathwater!  ;)

karl i went through muti listenings of the 1st sym, really can't find it as "unlistenable/dud" , at least 2 amazon members giving such reactions, over over-reactions I should say.
The  Whitman poem is quite incredible, panthestic in scope. VW scored it 1903-1906 and  made several revisions over the next several yrs. 66 minutes , oratorio/symphony.

If we take the incredible, beautiful  5th off the table in considering the 9 syms, , I'm not sure if its the 4 or 6 sym that is my favorite. I believe , many here will give the 4th the edge  and that most here giving the 6th next place of distinction in  excellence.

I'm listening to the Thomson 5th, can't say it takes  second to the Barbirolli.

Just unwraped a  cd had for some time, Andrew Davis/BBC in the 4th, Lark, Fantasia Tallis. We'll see how this 4th goes.
I listened to the ubiquitous Mitropolous/NY Phil Strings in the Tallis last night. I know the Barbirolli late 50's, I prefer the Mitropoulos. Hoping the Davis provides a  good  second alternative experience.
also reviewed last night the 1950's of 4th/Mitropolous/NY, 6th/Stokowski/NY. Both very good.
I need to ck a  passage in the 4th with Thomson. I think Mitropolous took that dreamy section in the andante/2 nd move, too fast, Thomson allows the music to drift into nothingness, sur-realistic.

Lethevich

I think people having problems with symphony no.1 is due to:

1. Being unwilling to accept that it is not exactly the same as RVW's mature symphony style (a little Elgar-ish)
2. It being much longer than the other syms, so requires more patience and attention
3. It being very chorally balanced "that's not a real symphony! I've heard some very boring oratorios this long, I'm not gonna give this a chance", etc

It's certainly not due to the objective qualities of the work - overall it's a very good setting, and very transparent despite its size. It's one of my least favourite of his cycle, but I still think it's very good.

I'm glad that you like RVW btw, Paul :)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

paulb

#248
Quote from: Lethe on January 24, 2008, 07:36:18 AM
I think people having problems with symphony no.1 is due to:

1. Being unwilling to accept that it is not exactly the same as RVW's mature symphony style (a little Elgar-ish)
2. It being much longer than the other syms, so requires more patience and attention
3. It being very chorally balanced "that's not a real symphony! I've heard some very boring oratorios this long, I'm not gonna give this a chance", etc

It's certainly not due to the objective qualities of the work - overall it's a very good setting, and very transparent despite its size. It's one of my least favourite of his cycle, but I still think it's very good.

I'm glad that you like RVW btw, Paul :)

Lethe
I do think you've hit on the issues surrounding the 1st sym/oratorio. "least favorite' may hold for many of the RVW community. The poem content is heavy weight and I love the pantheistic ideas. that alone gives some importance to the work.
Though I may be found more often in the modernist camp , my admiration for RVW has never diminished.

Just listened to the opening few minutes of the 6th/Andrew davis/BBC. In spite of the fact that the BBC is my fav british orch, this 6th doesn;t hold up well in the opening few minutes.
The Tallis fantasy offers more consideration.
I also have the 4/5 syms Davis/BBC, which i will proceed to.....

vandermolen

Paulb,

Which version of No 6 do you like best?
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

paulb

#250
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2008, 10:58:39 AM
Paulb,

Which version of No 6 do you like best?

There's always that idiocyncratic element involved in critical comparison.
Then others havea   certain bias favoring one conductor, while others believe they have heard the best with the only one they actually own or heard.
If you ask 5 RVW fans, which is their fav 6th, you;'ll get 5 different answers.
I've not heard either Boult, nor Haitink's, not Previn's, I'm sure all are fine performances.
I once thought the Stokowski/NY/1949 was 'exceptional", now yrs later i get to know that recording along side the Thomson, and i now I can hear the weaknesses of the Stokowski.
For me persoanlly I know if i heard them all, I'd walk with the Bryden Thomson. I felt this way at first hearing the entire set 2 yrs ago, and that opinion still holds. Sure there may be very little to squabble over in the various best of 6th's, but to me , some of the tinest nuances, or lack thereof, all begin to add up once the symphony has settled into your head.
Again, there's no need for anyone to sell their Boult sets, Haitink sets for the Thomson. Its just that for me Thomson seems to most consistently get at the heart of the score. "the conductor disappears" thing.
Down the road i'll try to hear the Boult and Haitink, just as  a  matter of being fair in the matter. My hunch tells me I'm on with the one best suited to me, but since the 6th is quite an exceptional sym, its of good that i try to seek out others with as fine a  approach as the Thomson.
I'm sure amazon offers used low price,  $ 3 or 4,  on both conductors.

which recordings do you have?
Did some of what i said make sense. Did you compare a  few already and just double cking what you found, against what i've found?

I did some comparisons of the 5th yrs ago, the Barbirolli came out top, but the diffs were minimial. Yet enough to chosse the Barbirolli over the others. The Thomson equals the Barbirolli.

paulb

#251
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2007, 01:27:09 AM
The Sixth, IMHO is VW's greatest symphony as it combines the violence of No 4 with the spirituality of No 5, the result is both compelling and disquieting. Hickox is generally v good but this is his weakest performance I think. Boult's Decca is the best but v good versions from Haitink, Thomson and Davis.

ahh I just now see your post June 7.

i'll try to obtain the Boult.
Andrew Davis, right? Or Colin?
Andrew would never work for me, in spite of the finest british orch, the BBC.
I'll look over my Haitink 7th.
Not sure i could compare favs between the 4,5,6 syms. i love each equally, but its the 5th that holds special meanings. has been of great importance for over 2 decades now. The 4, 6 I just recently came around to.

Lethevich

I didn't consider checking Operashare for any RVW recordings, but it threw up quite a few (mostly songs/expired links). As not everybody uses it, I've rehosted the Symphony No.6 by Colin Davis/Sinfonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, as I find the performance noteworthy, and it may interest somebody...

Performance details
I. Allegro
II. Moderato
III. Scherzo: Allegro vivace
IV. Epilogue: Moderato

It is perhaps the "heaviest" sounding recording of the work that I've heard, perhaps a fair part due to the live conditions - it has a very ferocious momentum and weight at times, and the German orchestra (playing RVW, WTH!? 0:)) play very confidently considering that this work must be relatively unfamiliar to them. Another thing of particular interest (IMO) is how prominent the saxophone solo in the scherzo is. This symphony is just brilliant, it's great to hear a non-British orchestra play it. The live broadcast recording is very good, the mp3 bitrate is 256, which is quite a bit nicer than the usual 192.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

karlhenning


paulb

Quote from: Lethe on January 25, 2008, 09:35:24 AM
I didn't consider checking Operashare for any RVW recordings, but it threw up quite a few (mostly songs/expired links). As not everybody uses it, I've rehosted the Symphony No.6 by Colin Davis/Sinfonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, as I find the performance noteworthy, and it may interest somebody...



The Rundfunk is one of my favorite german orchestras.
Much better than either the Berlin Phil, and far better than the Berlin SO.
Lets see the 1st movement is now into the....3rd minute
So far, this performance does not work for me at all.
I know Colin Davis very well. His Mozart sacred on Philips is excellent.
but I am afraid in this 6th sym, it does not work.
Sorry no cigar.
Bryden Thompson, 1st place.
I guess Vander wants me to get the Boult.
Its now in the 6th minute, thats quite enough.

Lethevich

Ouch! :D An interesting reaction, none the less...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

paulb

#256
Quote from: Lethe on January 25, 2008, 12:25:31 PM
Ouch! :D An interesting reaction, none the less...

they don't call me  the cantankerous critic for nothin' :D

Lethevich

I wish I thought of this earlier so I could ask as an addendum to a previous post: does anyone know why the Norfolk Rhapsody no.2 wasn't recorded until 2003, by Chandos? I checked their website but it doesn't seem to have any notes to explain why. Unfinished, or just plain worse?
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

drogulus

#258
 
     
Quote from: Lethe on January 26, 2008, 07:09:49 AM
I wish I thought of this earlier so I could ask as an addendum to a previous post: does anyone know why the Norfolk Rhapsody no.2 wasn't recorded until 2003, by Chandos? I checked their website but it doesn't seem to have any notes to explain why. Unfinished, or just plain worse?

     According to Michael Kennedy in the liner notes of a CD I have, RVW allowed only the first of the 3 Norfolk Rhapsodies to be published. The 2nd was last performed in 1914 according to Chandos (again MK provides the notes), and 2 pages of the score are missing. The Chandos recording is an edited and partially recomposed version.

     Here are the Chandos notes, from the website (the left pane of the CD page offers downloads of the cover and notes).
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Lethevich

Quote from: drogulus on January 28, 2008, 12:42:23 PM
     According to Michael Kennedy in the liner notes of a CD I have, RVW allowed only the first of the 3 Norfolk Rhapsodies to be published. The 2nd was last performed in 1914 according to Chandos (again MK provides the notes), and 2 pages of the score are missing. The Chandos recording is an edited and partially recomposed version.

     Here are the Chandos notes, from the website (the left pane of the CD page offers downloads of the cover and notes).

Thanks! Shame that the RVW society doesn't list the third online, which I presume is not likely to be played anytime soon, if at all. Does the completion of the second compare decently to the first? I listened to the 1 minute sample on Amazon, but as could be expected, it indicated very little :)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.