Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[aukhawk]

Couplings of 4 & 6 (and also of 3 & 5) make sense because they present the composer in similar vein - if you like one of the pair of symphonies, then you are quite likely to like the other, so that on a CD where they get artificially joined at the hip the value for money is better.  A coupling of (say) 5 & 6 of course makes good sense from the point of view of progressing through the composer's oeuvre but the risk is that the listener my like one but not the other, and so in CD terms this is, for some buyers, poor value for money.  This is similar to a concert programme where two popular warhorses surround a new commission from an unknown composer - audiences (especially subscription audiences) are routinely expected to put up with this.

Fortunately we now have downloads and for my part I have bought Symphony 6 (Pappano) on its own and without any financial penalty, because I know I would not listen to the 4th.  My favourite 6th up to now has been Andrew Davis but this new one sounds pretty good.

[vandermolen]

I also like the Andrew Davis recording of No.6 - arguably the best of his series, although I liked his recording of No.5, played by the BBC on Radio 3 on the day after the Duke of Edinburgh's death.

The Davis cycle is included in this inexpensive box set:

[relm1]

I've been enjoying both of these performances. The Barbican acoustic is rather dry (more noticeable in Symphony No.4 I think). In particular, the performance of the hushed finale of the 6th Symphony is very effectively delineated (most conductors tend to rush through it - Boult and Abravanel are exceptions). Pappano (in his introductory note) makes a lot of the fact that the recordings took place on the day of the 2019 UK election (No.4) and on the date of the first UK lockdown in 2020 (No.6) and that the performances picked up some of the tension and anxiety of those days.
I look forward to hearing what Brabbins makes of Symphony No.6 but I much prefer these performances of both works to recent ones by Manze and Elder, both of which I found disappointing:

I enjoyed this performance, found it better than some other recent interpretations but for some reason, I seem to be very heavily stuck on Boult and Previn as the pinnacle of RVW symphony interpretations and this one just doesn't displace those.  Pappano seems to take a non sentimental (just the facts of the score) approach rather than a subtextual interpretation that Boult and Previn take (the music has more to say that just what's in the notes).  It's a different approach and in some works, this approach can get you in trouble, but other works I think is preferable.  I think RVW is one of those composers where what is not written in the material is just as important and should be conveyed by an interpretation.  I'm not saying it's ok to ignore the direction (Haitink) or to follow it religiously without letting it breathe bringing in some dullness (Davis) but following the notes carefully and getting inside the mind of the composer, where he was in his life, his philosophy, and what he meant as well.  What was unsaid is just as valid as what is directly said with RVW.

[vandermolen]

I enjoyed this performance, found it better than some other recent interpretations but for some reason, I seem to be very heavily stuck on Boult and Previn as the pinnacle of RVW symphony interpretations and this one just doesn't displace those.  Pappano seems to take a non sentimental (just the facts of the score) approach rather than a subtextual interpretation that Boult and Previn take (the music has more to say that just what's in the notes).  It's a different approach and in some works, this approach can get you in trouble, but other works I think is preferable.  I think RVW is one of those composers where what is not written in the material is just as important and should be conveyed by an interpretation.  I'm not saying it's ok to ignore the direction (Haitink) or to follow it religiously without letting it breathe bringing in some dullness (Davis) but following the notes carefully and getting inside the mind of the composer, where he was in his life, his philosophy, and what he meant as well.  What was unsaid is just as valid as what is directly said with RVW.

Most interesting and I largely agree with you. I don't think that any other recording will, for me, replace Boult's Decca account with the composer in the studio (VW makes a speech at the end). Here's what the Sunday Times had to say today about the new Pappano recording which was their 'Classical Album of the Week':

'Pappano's debut on the LSO's label coincides with his appointment as its chief conductor from 2024. These live recordings of Vaughan Williams's most dissonant, rebarbative symphonies are as auspicious as André Previn's studio versions of Nos 6 to 8 made immediately before his appointment to the same post in 1968, which led to one of the most acclaimed recorded VW cycles. Although the composer refused to explain the 'meaning' of his symphonies, both are amongst the most modern-sounding works. Pappano's dramatic, thrustful accounts, vividly recorded, have a momentous, dynamic allure that bodes well for his future tenure, and the orchestra plays this music - the opening bars of the Sixth will recall the 1970s TV drama A Family at War to older listeners [he is wrong - the theme music comes from the end, not the beginning, of the first movement] - to the manner born. A live Pappano/LSO cycle would be an exciting prospect.' (Hugh Canning).

Of later recordings (later than Boult's Decca recording) I like the sibelian Berglund versions of both 4 and 6, Thomson in both and Abravanel in No.6. The Previn (No.6) has grown on me in recent years. I like Haitink's No.6 as well.

[relm1]

Most interesting and I largely agree with you. I don't think that any other recording will, for me, replace Boult's Decca account with the composer in the studio (VW makes a speech at the end). Here's what the Sunday Times had to say today about the new Pappano recording which was their 'Classical Album of the Week':

'Pappano's debut on the LSO's label coincides with his appointment as its chief conductor from 2024. These live recordings of Vaughan Williams's most dissonant, rebarbative symphonies are as auspicious as André Previn's studio versions of Nos 6 to 8 made immediately before his appointment to the same post in 1968, which led to one of the most acclaimed recorded VW cycles. Although the composer refused to explain the 'meaning' of his symphonies, both are amongst the most modern-sounding works. Pappano's dramatic, thrustful accounts, vividly recorded, have a momentous, dynamic allure that bodes well for his future tenure, and the orchestra plays this music - the opening bars of the Sixth will recall the 1970s TV drama A Family at War to older listeners [he is wrong - the theme music comes from the end, not the beginning, of the first movement] - to the manner born. A live Pappano/LSO cycle would be an exciting prospect.' (Hugh Canning).

Of later recordings (later than Boult's Decca recording) I like the sibelian Berglund versions of both 4 and 6, Thomson in both and Abravanel in No.6. The Previn (No.6) has grown on me in recent years. I like Haitink's No.6 as well.

That's a lousy review.  The composer explains his thoughts in parables.  It is obvious to those who hear and is clouded in mystery to those who don't.  For example in No. 9 he references the Tempest but the musical notes don't.  An interpreter who studies the score and the composer should understand the difference and what was meant.  More significantly, in No. 1, that is NOT a symphony about the SEA!!!!! The poems from Whitman include Leaves of Grass and Passage to India which are about death, passage of time, and progress.  How we learn and grow and acquire knowledge...those great times of amazing knowledge the poems were written in.  The poem is fantastic and I can understand why Whitman inspired so many artists.  They are transcendent and metaphorical.  Same with other great poets so when RVW references a Shakespeare literary work, even though the composer might not have used a word to explain the music, he spoke volumes about its meaning. Few composers explained themselves as eloquently as RVW did so its greatly annoying when conductors only use the score or worse, when "Sunday Times" ignores it and subtext. 

[vandermolen]

That's a lousy review.  The composer explains his thoughts in parables.  It is obvious to those who hear and is clouded in mystery to those who don't.  For example in No. 9 he references the Tempest but the musical notes don't.  An interpreter who studies the score and the composer should understand the difference and what was meant.  More significantly, in No. 1, that is NOT a symphony about the SEA!!!!! The poems from Whitman include Leaves of Grass and Passage to India which are about death, passage of time, and progress.  How we learn and grow and acquire knowledge...those great times of amazing knowledge the poems were written in.  The poem is fantastic and I can understand why Whitman inspired so many artists.  They are transcendent and metaphorical.  Same with other great poets so when RVW references a Shakespeare literary work, even though the composer might not have used a word to explain the music, he spoke volumes about its meaning. Few composers explained themselves as eloquently as RVW did so its greatly annoying when conductors only use the score or worse, when "Sunday Times" ignores it and subtext.

Once again very interesting, although didn't VW reference the Tempest in relation to the last movement of No.6 rather than No.9?

[Irons]

That's a lousy review.  The composer explains his thoughts in parables.  It is obvious to those who hear and is clouded in mystery to those who don't.  For example in No. 9 he references the Tempest but the musical notes don't.  An interpreter who studies the score and the composer should understand the difference and what was meant.  More significantly, in No. 1, that is NOT a symphony about the SEA!!!!! The poems from Whitman include Leaves of Grass and Passage to India which are about death, passage of time, and progress.  How we learn and grow and acquire knowledge...those great times of amazing knowledge the poems were written in.  The poem is fantastic and I can understand why Whitman inspired so many artists.  They are transcendent and metaphorical.  Same with other great poets so when RVW references a Shakespeare literary work, even though the composer might not have used a word to explain the music, he spoke volumes about its meaning. Few composers explained themselves as eloquently as RVW did so its greatly annoying when conductors only use the score or worse, when "Sunday Times" ignores it and subtext.

A thought provoking post. The "Pastoral Symphony" is an equally misunderstood title. 

[André]

Death, the passage of time and progress have everything to do with the sea (oceans). The sea is a metaphor to all that - and more.

All lives and deaths, all of the past, present, future,
This vast similitude spans them, and always has spann'd,
And shall forever span them and compactly hold and enclose them


O vast Rondure, swimming in space,
Cover'd all over with visible power and beauty,
Alternate light and day and the teeming spiritual darkness,
Unspeakable high processions of sun and moon and countless stars above (...)


O we can wait no longer,
We too take ship O soul,
Joyous we too launch out on trackless seas,
Fearless for unknown shores on waves of ecstasy to sail,
Amid the wafting winds, (thou pressing me to thee, I thee to me, O soul,)

[relm1]

Once again very interesting, although didn't VW reference the Tempest in relation to the last movement of No.6 rather than No.9?

I'm going off memory, I think you are right about No. 5 and Tess was No. 9?  Again going off memory but the point is these works are rich with extra musical sources.

[vandermolen]

I'm going off memory, I think you are right about No. 5 and Tess was No. 9?  Again going off memory but the point is these works are rich with extra musical sources.

Yes, Tess and Stonehenge were apparently original inspirations for No.9. Certainly Stonehenge and Symphony No.9 share similar monolithic qualities.

[pjme]

A thought provoking post. The "Pastoral Symphony" is an equally misunderstood title.

I was happily surprised that Het Symfonieorkest Vlaanderen (the Flemish Symphony Orchestra/ Bruges) and conductor Kristiina Poska will perform RVW's fifth symphony. Even greater was my surprise that the symphony suddenly got a title!

https://www.symfonieorkest.be/nl/agenda/102/the_celestial_city/kristiina_poska_

Apparently Michael Kennedy used that description. I doubt that RVW himself would be pleased.

[Florestan]

Death, the passage of time and progress have everything to do with the sea (oceans). The sea is a metaphor to all that - and more.

My thoughts exactly. And let me add to Whitman's poem another one, by a poet no less profound.

Homme libre, toujours tu chériras la mer !
La mer est ton miroir ; tu contemples ton âme
Dans le déroulement infini de sa lame,
Et ton esprit n'est pas un gouffre moins amer.

Tu te plais à plonger au sein de ton image ;
Tu l'embrasses des yeux et des bras, et ton coeur
Se distrait quelquefois de sa propre rumeur
Au bruit de cette plainte indomptable et sauvage.

Vous êtes tous les deux ténébreux et discrets :
Homme, nul n'a sondé le fond de tes abîmes ;
Ô mer, nul ne connaît tes richesses intimes,
Tant vous êtes jaloux de garder vos secrets !

Et cependant voilà des siècles innombrables
Que vous vous combattez sans pitié ni remord,
Tellement vous aimez le carnage et la mort,
Ô lutteurs éternels, ô frères implacables !

(Baudelaire)

It's probably no coincidence that sailors can make good, even profound, writers and composers (otomh Mark Twain, Joseph Conrad, Jean Cras).

[vandermolen]

I was happily surprised that Het Symfonieorkest Vlaanderen (the Flemish Symphony Orchestra/ Bruges) and conductor Kristiina Poska will perform RVW's fifth symphony. Even greater was my surprise that the symphony suddenly got a title!

https://www.symfonieorkest.be/nl/agenda/102/the_celestial_city/kristiina_poska_

Apparently Michael Kennedy used that description. I doubt that RVW himself would be pleased.

Very interesting!

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I was happily surprised that Het Symfonieorkest Vlaanderen (the Flemish Symphony Orchestra/ Bruges) and conductor Kristiina Poska will perform RVW's fifth symphony. Even greater was my surprise that the symphony suddenly got a title!

https://www.symfonieorkest.be/nl/agenda/102/the_celestial_city/kristiina_poska_

Apparently Michael Kennedy used that description. I doubt that RVW himself would be pleased.

A great program!  Wish that I could be there!  Do local radio stations normally broadcast these concerts (wondering whether or not I could listen to it online).

In any event, yes that is surprising about the title given to it!

PD

[Irons]

A great program!  Wish that I could be there!  Do local radio stations normally broadcast these concerts (wondering whether or not I could listen to it online).

In any event, yes that is surprising about the title given to it!

PD

I am equally surprised. I have always placed the 5th in the pure music category. But it could be argued there is no such thing (pure music). 

[Biffo]

In his book The music of Vaughan Williams Michael Kennedy discusses the numerous links to The Pilgrim's Progress (in its various guises) and also the 4th and 6th symphonies. He concludes 'They [4th, 5th & 6th symphonies] are the summit and the kernel of Vaughan Williams' art; and the greatest of the three - perhaps of all his works - is, in my opinion, this Symphony of the Celestial City. '

He is not giving the work a nickname.

[vandermolen]

In his book The music of Vaughan Williams Michael Kennedy discusses the numerous links to The Pilgrim's Progress (in its various guises and also the 4th and 6th symphonies. He concludes 'The 4th, 5th & 6th symphonies] are the summit and the kernel of Vaughan Williams' art; and the greatest of the three - perhaps of all his works - is, in my opinion, this Symphony of the Celestial City. '

He is not giving the work a nickname.

Yes, that's interesting. VW certainly used material destined for PP in the symphony. I thought that Michael Kennedy considered 'A Pastoral Symphony' to be the greatest of all VW's symphonies, although it would not be my choice and, along with No.4, it's the one that I listen to least these days.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Yes, that's interesting. VW certainly used material destined for PP in the symphony. I thought that Michael Kennedy considered 'A Pastoral Symphony' to be the greatest of all VW's symphonies, although it would not be my choice and, along with No.4, it's the one that I listen to least these days.

I looked up what Michael Kennedy had to say about it in The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams, second edition, and yes, that was a correct quote; however, there is also a footnote in which he said:

"That was my opinion in 1963 and sometimes still is; but I now tend to view that the greatest and most original of Vaughan Williams's symphonies is the Pastoral, which more than ever sounds to me to be his 'War Requiem'."

PD

[Biffo]

I looked up what Michael Kennedy had to say about it in The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams, second edition, and yes, that was a correct quote; however, there is also a footnote in which he said:

"That was my opinion in 1963 and sometimes still is; but I now tend to view that the greatest and most original of Vaughan Williams's symphonies is the Pastoral, which more than ever sounds to me to be his 'War Requiem'."

PD

Thanks for that clarification. I have the First Edition (Paperback Edition, 1971).

[pjme]

In his book The music of Vaughan Williams Michael Kennedy discusses the numerous links to The Pilgrim's Progress (in its various guises) and also the 4th and 6th symphonies. He concludes 'They [4th, 5th & 6th symphonies] are the summit and the kernel of Vaughan Williams' art; and the greatest of the three - perhaps of all his works - is, in my opinion, this Symphony of the Celestial City. '

He is not giving the work a nickname.

And that is why I find it quite brutal for a concert organisation/orchestra to use those words.

Wikipedia mentiones :
"....an  inscription (from  The Pilgrim's Progress') was omitted from the published score in accordance with the composer's wish that the symphony should be regarded as absolute music."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Vaughan_Williams)