Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Lisztianwagner]

Boult recorded the VW symphonies twice, for Decca (and Everest for No.9) and for EMI/Warner. I assume that you are referring to the latter set (EMI). Boult conducted the premieres of symphonies 3,4 and 6 and had a special authority with VW. I'd recommend Elder's excellent recording of 'Job'.

Yes, I was referring to the EMI set. Thank you for the suggestion, I've found Elder's version of Job along with the recording of the Songs of Travel, so now I'm going to have a listen to it.

[Lisztianwagner]

This is great to read, Ilaria.

I do want to write a few things in response to what you wrote, I cannot imagine my life without RVW's music. He was one of the first composers I ever got into (I got into Sibelius and Nielsen around this time as well) and he spoke to me much more immediately than any composer I've encountered. It's like I felt him in everything I heard. The passion, atmospheric beauty and lyricism of his music is what drew me in first. As time wore on, I have explored so many other composers' music, but I always come back to RVW at some point or another.

I certainly agree! I approached RVW's music because at the time I had read about some similarities between his style and Holst's, as Holst was one of my favourites; but then I learnt to appreciate him as distinct composer for the same qualities you mentioned, his works definitely express lyricism, depth and poetical suggestion beyond an appearance of simplicity.

[Mirror Image]

Very nicely put John. That is largely my experience as well.

Thanks, Jeffrey.

[Mirror Image]

I certainly agree! I approached RVW's music because at the time I had read about some similarities between his style and Holst's, as Holst was one of my favourites; but then I learnt to appreciate him as distinct composer for the same qualities you mentioned, his works definitely express lyricism, depth and poetical suggestion beyond an appearance of simplicity.

There are some similarities to Holst, but these two composers don't really sound anything alike. Both composers could write some of the most gnarly, in-your-face modernistic music imaginable, but their individual "brands" (for lack of a better term) were totally singular and unique to them. If you play Holst's Mars from The Planets and the opening passage of RVW's 4th symphony, someone would definitely understand what I mean. Of course, these are one of many examples of both composers pushing the envelope. The point you make about an outward appearance of simplicity is an interesting one and this is one of the qualities that I think works in RVW's favor in that his music is accessible to anyone who has the ears for it, but he never downplays his intentions with the music and the complexity that can happen within it. I was first struck by the surface of his music, but when I dove deeper into it, I realized what a complicated person he was underneath this more welcoming musical exterior.

[LKB]

...Boult is an great conductor and an excellent interpreter of Vaughan Williams' music; he handled instruments, dynamics and rhythms very well. I appreciated all of them, but I particularly enjoyed the Sea Symphony (very glorious and powerfully emotional)...

I share these sentiments completely. I've listened to any number of recordings of Symphony No. 1 since 1985 - all by conductors with solid RVW credentials - and imho none match Boult on EMI.

[Mirror Image]

I share these sentiments completely. I've listened to any number of recordings of Symphony No. 1 since 1985 - all by conductors with solid RVW credentials - and imho none match Boult on EMI.

I can certainly agree with this, too. A Sea Symphony from Boult on EMI blows me out of my chair --- I never heard a more powerful and mesmerizing introduction to this symphony.

[LKB]

I can certainly agree with this, too. A Sea Symphony from Boult on EMI blows me out of my chair --- I never heard a more powerful and mesmerizing introduction to this symphony.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the choral sound is, l think, the crucial element. Full, balanced tone with the greatest possible depth is a must, and Boult has that. It is most present at the end of the symphony, and the result is Infinity itself.

[Mirror Image]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the choral sound is, l think, the crucial element. Full, balanced tone with the greatest possible depth is a must, and Boult has that. It is most present at the end of the symphony, and the result is Infinity itself.

Yep, a fine sound he gets from all involved!

[Karl Henning]

There's no denying that Holst and Vaughan Williams shared common musical ground.

[Mirror Image]

There's no denying that Holst and Vaughan Williams shared common musical ground.

Absolutely and they were great friends much like Shostakovich and Weinberg were. I'd love to read your take on the individual styles of Shostakovich and Weinberg. Of course, this would be for another thread, but it will be interesting to read a composer's take on this.

[Karl Henning]

Jeffrey, your In box is full.

[Lisztianwagner]

There are some similarities to Holst, but these two composers don't really sound anything alike. Both composers could write some of the most gnarly, in-your-face modernistic music imaginable, but their individual "brands" (for lack of a better term) were totally singular and unique to them. If you play Holst's Mars from The Planets and the opening passage of RVW's 4th symphony, someone would definitely understand what I mean. Of course, these are one of many examples of both composers pushing the envelope. The point you make about an outward appearance of simplicity is an interesting one and this is one of the qualities that I think works in RVW's favor in that his music is accessible to anyone who has the ears for it, but he never downplays his intentions with the music and the complexity that can happen within it. I was first struck by the surface of his music, but when I dove deeper into it, I realized what a complicated person he was underneath this more welcoming musical exterior.

Yes, I think I understand what you mean; using the example you pointed out, both Holst's Mars and the opening passage of RVW's 4th are quite dissonant and have very bold harmonic textures, since the first shows a tonality taken to extremes, even not clearly defined but in a way of polytonality, while the second experiments four-note motifs that come close to serialism; but in spite of everything, they have their peculiarities, their marks, that make them absolutely recognizable from each other. This sounds Holst and that sounds Vaughan Williams.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, I think I understand what you mean; using the example you pointed out, both Holst's Mars and the opening passage of RVW's 4th are quite dissonant and have very bold harmonic textures, since the first shows a tonality taken to extremes, even not clearly defined but in a way of polytonality, while the second experiments four-note motifs that come close to serialism; but in spite of everything, they have their peculiarities, their marks, that make them absolutely recognizable from each other. This sounds Holst and that sounds Vaughan Williams.

Yes, indeed.

[vandermolen]

Jeffrey, your In box is full.

Thanks Karl. Assuming that you mean this Jeffrey, as a subscriber, I should have unlimited emails. I need to check this out.

[vandermolen]

Yes, I was referring to the EMI set. Thank you for the suggestion, I've found Elder's version of Job along with the recording of the Songs of Travel, so now I'm going to have a listen to it.

Excellent! I hope that you enjoy it. I like the Songs of Travel as well.

[vandermolen]

There's an argument that VW's 6th Symphony was, in some way, a tribute to Holst. The menacing second movement shows affinity to 'Mars' and the fade-out ending, which drifts out into nothingness echoes the end of 'Neptune'. Both works were composed after world wars.

[Roasted Swan]

Yes, I think I understand what you mean; using the example you pointed out, both Holst's Mars and the opening passage of RVW's 4th are quite dissonant and have very bold harmonic textures, since the first shows a tonality taken to extremes, even not clearly defined but in a way of polytonality, while the second experiments four-note motifs that come close to serialism; but in spite of everything, they have their peculiarities, their marks, that make them absolutely recognizable from each other. This sounds Holst and that sounds Vaughan Williams.

Much as I love both Holst and RVW neither of them pushed the envelope of harmony in their music.  Mars is dissonant rather than polytonal and the reason for the dissonance is the picture it seeks to paint.  Compared to what was being written elsewhere around the world at that time Holst's music is by the measure of how experimental it is pretty conservative.  That is NOT a criticism - too many composers have sacrificed themselves on the altar of experimentalism.  Remember that one time Holst DID try to be truly polytonal - the finale of the Fugal Concerto - the general comment would how non-dissonant it was!  Also RVW 4 is in no way a serial/atonal composition - I've never heard anyone suggest that before.  The tension in the work is created by the gravitational pull between the tonal centres with F minor only "winning" at the literal end.

[Lisztianwagner]

Much as I love both Holst and RVW neither of them pushed the envelope of harmony in their music.  Mars is dissonant rather than polytonal and the reason for the dissonance is the picture it seeks to paint.  Compared to what was being written elsewhere around the world at that time Holst's music is by the measure of how experimental it is pretty conservative.  That is NOT a criticism - too many composers have sacrificed themselves on the altar of experimentalism.  Remember that one time Holst DID try to be truly polytonal - the finale of the Fugal Concerto - the general comment would how non-dissonant it was!  Also RVW 4 is in no way a serial/atonal composition - I've never heard anyone suggest that before.  The tension in the work is created by the gravitational pull between the tonal centres with F minor only "winning" at the literal end.

Of course they are not serial or atonal compositions, although one source of inspiration for The Planets may have been Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra; instead Vaughan Williams said that Schönberg's music meant nothing to him.
Anyway the key for Mars should be in C, but there's much tonic competition in the movement and in same ways it could be considered almost polytonal, despite Holst never broke tonality; while in RVW's 4th for example, in the opening passage, the composer used a four-tone motif that developed from the beginning dissonace; that's why I said that it came close to serialism, but it's not serial.

[Roasted Swan]

Of course they are not serial or atonal compositions, although one source of inspiration for The Planets may have been Schönberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra; instead Vaughan Williams said that Schönberg's music meant nothing to him.
Anyway the key for Mars should be in C, but there's much tonic competition in the movement and in same ways it could be considered almost polytonal, despite Holst never broke tonality; while in RVW's 4th for example, in the opening passage, the composer used a four-tone motif that developed from the beginning dissonace; that's why I said that it came close to serialism, but it's not serial.

Forgive me if I sound pedantic but I think you are conflating atonalism and serialism.

[Lisztianwagner]

Forgive me if I sound pedantic but I think you are conflating atonalism and serialism.

I'm not conflating them, I know the difference; atonalism doesn't necessarily lead to serialism as well as serialism doesn't necessarily lead to atonality. All I wanted to say from the beginning was that Vaughan Williams and Holst shared some similarities, but anyway they always kept their peculiar marks that made their music clearly recognizable from each other, even when both of them used a bolder harmonic language, as for example in Mars or the 4th Symphony. I didn't say that Holst was polytonal, just that in Mars there was tonic competition in the sections of the movement that made tonality sound not always defined, so almost what we might call a sort of non-planned polytonality, although its tonality is in C (it sometimes happens in some Mahler's symphonies too, but certainly Mahler can't be considered atonal for that); I didn't say RVW was a serial composer either, just because at times in the 4th he experimented four-tone motifs in the first movement (I didn't mean he came close to Schönberg).