Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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vandermolen

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2022, 01:41:32 PM
Psshaw!! You say that as if there were no subtleties to appreciate in the Boléro!!

Yes, you are quite right Karl - Ravel was one of the most sophisticated composers (after all, VW went to study with him) - it is just that some people are a bit snooty about Boléro but I have always liked the work.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Karl Henning

Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 01:56:33 PM
Yes, you are quite right Karl - Ravel was one of the most sophisticated composers (after all, VW went to study with him) - it is just that some people are a bit snooty about Boléro but I have always liked the work.

Once in our Music Theory class at Wooster (the final quarter of the Theory sequence being a survey of 20th-c. music) a number of the students were dismissive of the Boléro (I don't think I was one, since the piece would mostly have been new to me at the time) and Jack Gallagher challenged them/us: Okay, you think you know all about the piece, sing back the four phrases of the tune to me. It was a great mental exercise.


And, of course, Shostakovich would not have taken the piece for a model, had he not admired it.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

vandermolen

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2022, 02:06:59 PM
Once in our Music Theory class at Wooster (the final quarter of the Theory sequence being a survey of 20th-c. music) a number of the students were dismissive of the Boléro (I don't think I was one, since the piece would mostly have been new to me at the time) and Jack Gallagher challenged them/us: Okay, you think you know all about the piece, sing back the four phrases of the tune to me. It was a great mental exercise.


And, of course, Shostakovich would not have taken the piece for a model, had he not admired it.
Good points Karl. Past my bedtime here. Bonne Nuit!  :)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Roasted Swan

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.

Sibelius 1 ends quietly - the Pathetique effectively niente as the last dynamic is pppp(!) - and many more I'm sure if I put my mind to it - so that's a bit of trivia for the bin!

Biffo

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.

Haydn's Farewell symphony (No 45) ends with just two muted violins playing

Jo498

The first famous romantic symphony with a quiet ending was probably Brahms' 3rd (1880s). The Haydn Farewell ist obviously a century earlier but it was more a "novelty" and in any case before symphonies usually had a dramatic arch, usually ending in a triumphal (or certainly emphatic) closure.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on June 30, 2022, 01:56:33 PM
Yes, you are quite right Karl - Ravel was one of the most sophisticated composers (after all, VW went to study with him) - it is just that some people are a bit snooty about Boléro but I have always liked the work.

A few years ago I attended a musical appreciation club in our area. I only went the once but that is not here or there. They played a recording of Boléro and after it finished members were asked to stand up and comment. A lady was first with "Every time I listen to Boléro I hear something new". A clever dick (man) retorted "How? When it is the same music repeated over and over" The audience cruelly burst out laughing. I felt very sorry for her and understood what she meant.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Irons on July 01, 2022, 08:39:47 AM
A few years ago I attended a musical appreciation club in our area. I only went the once but that is not here or there. They played a recording of Boléro and after it finished members were asked to stand up and comment. A lady was first with "Every time I listen to Boléro I hear something new". A clever dick (man) retorted "How? When it is the same music repeated over and over" The audience cruelly burst out laughing. I felt very sorry for her and understood what she meant.

Huboons!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

amw

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
I piece of musical trivia I remember is an assertion I read that Sibelius's 4th (1911) is the first symphony to end other than f or louder (it ends mf).

But VW's London is certainly the first symphony to end niente.
Possibly it is the first symphony that doesn't end either loudly or quietly (and one of very few to end mf or mp—I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head).

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 28, 2022, 08:27:26 AM
I don't know, John. If I listen to, say, Egdon Heath and the Tallis Fantasia, I'm not hearing the work of two composers whose musical language is so utterly different as you appear to suggest.

Yes, I'm sure there are parallels these two works stylistically. I guess my whole point is they have their own thought processes and ways of approaching their own music that distinguishes them for the other. There's a certain lyricism in RVW for example that is instantly recognizable. Just as there's a rhythmic element in Holst that I find distinctive. Anyway, I never said there weren't similarities between the two composers just as there were some shared similarities between Debussy and Ravel or Shostakovich and Weinberg. I know the composer in question when I hear their music and that's all I'm saying.

vandermolen

OT
The thing about Sibelius's 4th Symphony is that it's the only symphony I know which doesn't end either loudly or softly.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

André

Quote from: vandermolen on July 01, 2022, 09:37:34 PM
OT
The thing about Sibelius's 4th Symphony is that it's the only symphony I know which doesn't end either loudly or softly.

True. The 4th doesn't have a conclusion, it just ends.

vandermolen

Quote from: André on July 03, 2022, 07:23:01 AM
True. The 4th doesn't have a conclusion, it just ends.
Yes, exactly!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

relm1

Quote from: André on July 03, 2022, 07:23:01 AM
True. The 4th doesn't have a conclusion, it just ends.

Sibelius is a master at endings.  They're all so well judged even when it's ambivalent. 

vandermolen

Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2022, 05:43:38 AM
Sibelius is a master at endings.  They're all so well judged even when it's ambivalent.
I agree!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Back to VW. I'm currently greatly enjoying this CD of two poetic, atmospheric and reflective works from later on in VW's composing career. They make a very nice programme:
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Biffo

Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 01:15:27 AM
Back to VW. I'm currently greatly enjoying this CD of two poetic, atmospheric and reflective works from later on in VW's composing career. They make a very nice programme:


Perhaps I should give An Oxford Elegy another try, it is years since I last heard it. I am not keen on works with a spoken narration.

vandermolen

#5857
Quote from: Biffo on July 06, 2022, 01:46:05 AM
Perhaps I should give An Oxford Elegy another try, it is years since I last heard it. I am not keen on works with a spoken narration.
Yes, your not the only one Biffo. The narration is quite recessed in the Centaur recording (not like Jack May on Nimbus who sounds like a General barking out military instructions) which allows me to soak up and enjoy the overall atmosphere of the piece. Oddly enough I often enjoy works which include a narration, like Copland's 'Lincoln Portrait' or some versions of Sinfonia Antartica (Boult/Decca, Previn/RCA).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 (RPO, Gibson)
A fine, moving and IMO most underrated performance.
I have it on an original HMV Series CD, coupled with Berglund's recording of Symphony No.6. Two fine Sibelian performances. This was one of the best (alongside the Moeran Symphony, Dilkes, Ireland and Bax) releases in that fine old series - now it's all popular classics at HMV. Sorry, I sound like a terrible snob!

Any other views on this performance?
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Biffo

Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2022, 06:14:20 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No.5 (RPO, Gibson)
A fine, moving and IMO most underrated performance.
I have it on an original HMV Series CD, coupled with Berglund's recording of Symphony No.6. Two fine Sibelian performances. This was one of the best (alongside the Moeran Symphony, Dilkes, Ireland and Bax) releases in that fine old series - now it's all popular classics at HMV. Sorry, I sound like a terrible snob!

Any other views on this performance?


Listening to it now on Spotify - woodwinds sound too bright and forward but that could be Spotify. It now only seems to be available as part of a two-disc set with the Berglund 4 & 6; as I already have them in the Warner Berglund Icon set it is a bit of a non-starter. The album cover has wasps on it, presumably because it also contains the Aristophanic Suite, all 8'35 of it.

I will hunt round a bit more as it sounds like a fine performance.