Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

That's the same thing I don't need to know about. Musicians produces music. I am not interested in anything else they do, unless I feel that my purchases might support abusive behavior. That is not a factor if the musician is no longer living.

Fair enough.

[Maestro267]

Yeah, it's gonna take more than that to cancel our beloved RVW.

[vandermolen]

Yeah, it's gonna take more than that to cancel our beloved RVW.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Well, the story isn't exactly simple....but again, I didn't want to get into it (as I mentioned before) as I care more to focus on his works and also not speculate about someone's life and relationships.

PD

[vandermolen]

Well, the story isn't exactly simple....but again, I didn't want to get into it (as I mentioned before) as I care more to focus on his works and also not speculate about someone's life and relationships.

PD

I don't think that interest in the music and interest in the life of the composer (including personal relationships) are mutually exclusive.
I'll wait for it all to 'kick off' now

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I don't think that interest in the music and interest in the life of the composer (including personal relationships) are mutually exclusive.
I'll wait for it all to 'kick off' now

I have no idea what you mean about "kick off"?

PD

EdIt:  And yes, I try and understand about the times and background growing up, etc. of composers, but I don't think that your earlier comments re VW and what was going on were very helpful (as in from what we know by one of the three major people involved)....they came across as, pardon, but rather *salacious.  I don't believe that we know the whole story, but again, I really don't appreciate it when guys (and it's always guys from my experience who go into things like this and one of the reasons why I have left).  And that's how I feel.  Just being honest.

*and I hopefully you know more about the matter...like the wearing of the black and so forth?

PD

[vandermolen]

I have no idea what you mean about "kick off"?

PD

EdIt:  And yes, I try and understand about the times and background growing up, etc. of composers, but I don't think that your earlier comments re VW and what was going on were very helpful (as in from what we know by one of the three major people involved)....they came across as, pardon, but rather *salacious.  I don't believe that we know the whole story, but again, I really don't appreciate it when guys (and it's always guys from my experience who go into things like this and one of the reasons why I have left).  And that's how I feel.  Just being honest.

*and I hopefully you know more about the matter...like the wearing of the black and so forth?

PD

'Kick off' - like a football match - in other words, arguments start off. My comment was a statement of what was going on in the composer's life is now largely accepted. During the Blitz the three of them (RVW, Adeline, Ursula) were together at one point (in the same house) and there is quite a charming story of them all holding hands during a bombing raid as they might all not be around the next morning. I'm not sure why you consider my comments 'salacious' nor do I understand why you feel the need to make a gender-based stereotype about them ('and it's always guys...')
'...the wearing of black and so forth' (not sure what you mean)

[Pohjolas Daughter]

'Kick off' - like a football match - in other words, arguments start off. My comment was a statement of what was going on in the composer's life is now largely accepted. During the Blitz the three of them (RVW, Adeline, Ursula) were together at one point (in the same house) and there is quite a charming story of them all holding hands during a bombing raid as they might all not be around the next morning. I'm not sure why you consider my comments 'salacious' nor do I understand why you feel the need to make a gender-based stereotype about them ('and it's always guys...')
'...the wearing of black and so forth' (not sure what you mean)

Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD

[Biffo]

Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD

For the sake of Adeline's health RVW moved out of London to the more rural surroundings of Dorking. He cared for her for over thirty years.

[vandermolen]

Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD

Hello PD,
Thank you for your message. Interesting about 'The Woman in Black' - VW's relationship with Adeline seems complex but he appears very devoted to her for over 50 years. I think that you may be right about mental illness.
I note your other views and thank you for clarifying them. Maybe 'menage a trois' was a bad phrase on my part but it is how a musician once described the situation to me.
I'll now go back to observing the current spectacular collapse of the British Government!
All best
Jeffrey

[Brian]

I for one did not know anything about the personal life story and come away from it with increased respect for the composer (all three people, in fact) as they all seem to have behaved with great compassion and decency to one another, and to have made each other's lives better. As we know, that can be all too rare.

Anyway. Thanks all. 

[Irons]

Jeffrey,

Regarding wearing black:  From what I understood, Adeline was so distraught about her brother's death during WWI, that she wore black for the rest of her life which suggests to me that there were quite possibly mental health issues at her end (mentioned elsewhere too) and she apparently struggled with severe arthritis which became increasingly worse as she got older (so much so that she was wheelchair-bound by the time of the incident that you mentioned).  Again, I'm not a scholar, but I believe that he (VW) refused to leave her and was her caregiver.  So, yes, a strange arrangement.  Perhaps she gave them her blessing?  I don't know.  But to me, calling it a M à T (particularly without saying anything further) sounded to me at the time like the kind of thing that one would read in a gossip magazine (I think that it's the Guardian that has a current story about it which comes across that way?).  Sorry, I think that using the term "salacious" was a bad choice at my end.

As far as what I had said about men, this is from my personal experience being on classical music forums over the years.  I've never read any comments by women who have said things on threads about composers or performers or when their name(s) were mentioned (often after someone spoke about admiring their artistic skills) someone will blurt out something nasty about that composer or performer's personal life (true or rumored).  I don't know why some guys like to do this.  And how many women regularly contribute here?  I can think of three (including myself).  It's frustrating at my end and makes me feel sad--and often disgusted.  And no, I'm not trying to say that you were trying to make me feel that way as I think that you (from the little I know of you) are a nice person.  I just needed to get that off of my chest.

Hoping that I've made my thoughts clearer to you Jeffrey?  I'm just here to enjoy the music.

Best,

PD

Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.

[vandermolen]

I for one did not know anything about the personal life story and come away from it with increased respect for the composer (all three people, in fact) as they all seem to have behaved with great compassion and decency to one another, and to have made each other's lives better. As we know, that can be all too rare.

Anyway. Thanks all. 

I think that's very true Brian.

[vandermolen]

Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.

I think that we all have a dark side! (known as 'The Shadow' AFAIK in Jungian psychology) 

[Irons]

I think that we all have a dark side! (known as 'The Shadow' AFAIK in Jungian psychology) 

Not me, Jeffrey. 100% sweetness and light.

[vandermolen]

Not me, Jeffrey. 100% sweetness and light.

Yes, absolutely right Lol - I realised that long ago  0:) 

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think that we all have a dark side! (known as 'The Shadow' AFAIK in Jungian psychology) 

"Only The Shadow Knows"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

    PD

[Spotted Horses]

Excellent post, PD. RVW remained committed to the well-being to his first wife and although a big age difference his second marriage was a loving one.
Many composers have a dark side. It is a valid point that without it they would not have been as good as they were.

My general observations is that intimate relationships, marriages or other long term intimate partnerships, are often very complicated, don't conform to what is "normal" and are driven by circumstances that are not known to people outside the relationship. Speculating and/or passing judgement on such relationships based on the public face of the relationship is of dubious accuracy and value, in my view. As long as there is no indication of abuse, I find myself uninterested, in principal. This particularly applies when the participants are no longer living.

For composers, I am particularly uninterested. I've only gone beyond CD linear notes twice. I started reading Thayer's "Life of Beethoven," and found interesting information about Beethoven's early life, in which he was a prodigy who served as a church organist at an early age (if I recall correctly) but eventually got bored by all of the tedious detail of Beethoven's activities. The other time was Swafford's biography of Brahms, but discontinued reading before getting too far because I didn't see that reading about his neuroses was helping me appreciate the music.

[vandermolen]

"Only The Shadow Knows"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

    PD

[vandermolen]

My general observations is that intimate relationships, marriages or other long term intimate partnerships, are often very complicated, don't conform to what is "normal" and are driven by circumstances that are not known to people outside the relationship. Speculating and/or passing judgement on such relationships based on the public face of the relationship is of dubious accuracy and value, in my view. As long as there is no indication of abuse, I find myself uninterested, in principal. This particularly applies when the participants are no longer living.

For composers, I am particularly uninterested. I've only gone beyond CD linear notes twice. I started reading Thayer's "Life of Beethoven," and found interesting information about Beethoven's early life, in which he was a prodigy who served as a church organist at an early age (if I recall correctly) but eventually got bored by all of the tedious detail of Beethoven's activities. The other time was Swafford's biography of Brahms, but discontinued reading before getting too far because I didn't see that reading about his neuroses was helping me appreciate the music.

Totally agree with the first sentence.  'The 'normal man is a very dark horse indeed' (Emmanuel Miller, Psychiatrist - Father of the play-write Jonathan Miller)