Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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vandermolen

Quote from: eyeresist on August 10, 2008, 09:14:50 PM
I think I am starting to "get" Vaughan Williams, thanks to Gibson's interpretation of symphony 5. Compared to Previn/LSO this has warmer sound, but is also more emotional. The first movement has a hushed expectancy, while the 3rd movement has a great yearning quality. Finale could have been taken with more vigour. Incidentally, I found this movement made me think of some sort of filmic finale, though the only one I could specify was the climax of Peter Weir's film Fearless, which I think has fugal accompaniment.

For both Gibson and Previn I thought the 2nd movement wasn't nearly presto as required, and the finale lacked true allegro. I suspect this is common performing practice, perhaps from a subconscious wish to make this another "Pastoral" symphony. Perhaps earlier performances are more stringent here?

I've now heard the 6th symphony conducted by Previn, Handley and Berglund. I'm not sure any of them get it quite right. I feel this work needs strongly felt underlying tension, almost (dare I say it?) Shostakovichian. I wonder if the Andrew Davis performance will meet my requirements...

The Andrew Davis recording is very good; the best in his VW symphony cycle. Personally I like Boult's 1950s Decca recording of Symphony 6 best of all, but it is only available in a boxed set. I like the Berglund, Davis, Haitink, Abravanel and Barbirolli also.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

eyeresist

Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2008, 05:10:30 AM
The Andrew Davis recording is very good; the best in his VW symphony cycle. Personally I like Boult's 1950s Decca recording of Symphony 6 best of all, but it is only available in a boxed set. I like the Berglund, Davis, Haitink, Abravanel and Barbirolli also.

I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...

I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant.

Christo

Quote from: eyeresist on August 11, 2008, 07:14:19 PM
I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...

I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant. 

Once in a while, I confess my own preference for Thomson's Sixth in these columns. Yes, your description is apt, but at the same time, his slow, dramatic treatment of the opening, combined with great acoustics in the best Chandos recordings tradition, do it for me. Compared with Thomson, especially Davis' opening is much quicker and more lively, but for me there's a big loss in drama, too. At least we can all agree that Thomson's version differs from the other ones.
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

vandermolen

Bryden Thomson was a very underrated conductor who sadly died too young.

I forgot to mention his VW No 6 in my list below. Christo is right; it is one of the best. Infact the BBC Music Mag "Top 1000 CDs Guide" lists it as their No 1 choice: "Command of the ardour,menace and baleful violence of the first three movements (Davis, Handley, Previn) doesn't guarantee ability to sustain the miasmic tension of the sphinx-like finale.....but Slatkin (like Kees Bakels on Naxos) seems to achieve it at the expense of the other movements' tensions....Thomson, despite the slightly cavernous Chandos sound, here delivers the most cogent performance of his cycle...and, there is a rapt frozen beauty about the finale." (Calum MacDonald). This is a fine performance and I feel that the church recording is an asset. I would point out that Andrew Achenbach described the performance as "soggy and washed-up" but later adopted a more sympathetic view!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: eyeresist on August 11, 2008, 07:14:19 PM
I had no idea Barbirolli had recorded the 6th...

I am looking for energised, symphonic performances, and am contemplating the Boult/Decca and Haitink sets. Has anyone heard Thomson's set? I understand it was energetic but very reverberant.


Barbirolli's recording with the Bavarian RSO is/was on Orfeo, coupled bizarrely with Brahms's Second Symphony.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

drogulus

#526
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sound67

Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording. I would opt for either Andrew Davis OR Maurice Abravanel. Both are great.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

vandermolen

Quote from: sound67 on August 15, 2008, 06:05:00 AM
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording. I would opt for either Andrew Davis OR Maurice Abravanel. Both are great.

Thomas

I agree in many ways. Nice to see another vote for Abravanel, as not everyone likes it (Andrew Achenbach in his Gramophone survey was dismissive of it). I think it's terrific (longest epilogue on CD...works well...usually this music is rushed or too loud). Also, great, unique coupling: Dona Nobis Pacem. They go well together I think.
Jeffrey
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

M forever

Quote from: sound67 on August 15, 2008, 06:05:00 AM
Barbirolli's 6th is a fiery account, but because of the unfamiliarity of the orchestra with the composer's idiom (which, sadly, is all too obvious) it cannot be considered the benchmark recording.

How is that obvious? Please give concrete examples. What characterizes VW's "idiom"?

sound67

Quote from: M forever on August 16, 2008, 07:29:30 PM
How is that obvious? Please give concrete examples. What characterizes VW's "idiom"?

Quit stalking me, nincompoop. 

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

sound67

Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2008, 12:04:21 AM
Barbirolli's recording with the Bavarian RSO is/was on Orfeo, coupled bizarrely with Brahms's Second Symphony.

Has anyone heard the re-release of the Berglund-Bournemouth account of the 6th yet? How does it compare?

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

vandermolen

Quote from: sound67 on August 17, 2008, 12:05:57 AM
Has anyone heard the re-release of the Berglund-Bournemouth account of the 6th yet? How does it compare?

Thomas

I did a review on the Amazon UK site (below). I think that it is one of the few successful performances on CD:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-6/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=cm_cr-mr-title
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

M forever

Quote from: sound67 on August 16, 2008, 11:54:56 PM
Quit stalking me, nincompoop. 

You aren't interesting enough to stalk, sorry.

That was actually a serious question though. Since I am very interested in playing and performance styles, in what is "idiomatic" performance of music, it would interest me to know what VW's "idiom" is and how the SOBR failed to realize it and how Barbirolli failed to school them in it. Unfortunately, this look once again like the typical sound67 tactic of hinting at some deep, "non-mainstream" insights few other people have, but then once again, there doesn't seem to be much behind the claim other than attitude. A pity. I would have liked to learn more about this subject.

sound67

Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 01:46:16 PM
You aren't interesting enough to stalk, sorry.

Sorry, but you are (hence the senseless comment in the film music thread. You're pathetic.  $:)
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

M forever

You are enormously easy to unsettle. Not surprising though since most of your material is just attitude, not substance. Again, a pity since I would have liked to learn more about VW's "idiom".
Can anybody else actually comment on that?

sound67

Quote from: M forever on August 18, 2008, 12:46:34 AM
You are enormously easy to unsettle.

You are right. People with narrow fields of interests and narrow minds such as yourself are a lot less easy to unsettle.  ;D
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Hector

Quote from: M forever on August 18, 2008, 12:46:34 AM
You are enormously easy to unsettle. Not surprising though since most of your material is just attitude, not substance. Again, a pity since I would have liked to learn more about VW's "idiom".
Can anybody else actually comment on that?

Since when have you cared about English music or its performance practice?

Thomas has a point.

Bugger off to your German domain and Sinopoli.

M forever

Quote from: Hector on August 18, 2008, 05:53:47 AM
Since when have you cared about English music or its performance practice?

Thomas has a point.

What business of yours is it what interests me and what not? Why do you meddle here? Do you have something to add or do you just want to provoke? What is his point? That he makes claims of knowledge that he doesn't have? Yes, that is apparently true. He does that all the time.

All this smoke blowing instead of just answering the question?

Well, of course, we know, there is no answer - it is already totally obvious that that was just one of sound67's hollow phrases. When someone says something vague but hinting at specialized knowledge like "they don't understand VW's idiom", then I find that interesting and want to know more about that.

So, since sound67 can not answer the question, can anybody else explain, is there a specific recognizeable VW "idiom", and what consists "idiomatic" playing of his music?

Oh, and a question to both Hector and sound67: have you ever played music by VW? I don't mean in the CD player, I mean as musicians? What specific insights into his musical "idiom" did you gain from that practical playing experience that Barbirolli was not able to communicate to the SOBR in that recording?

scarpia

#539
I don't know if this is what others are talking about, but I tend to associate 20th century English music with a certain string sound, which might be described as somewhat maudlin or sentimental, perhaps typified by this excellent release:



Neville Marriner and his ASMF may be another example.  I seem to recall reading claims that it has something to do with bowing with high speed but light pressure, accompanied by a generous vibrato.  In Barbirolli recordings, the grunting, moaning, or humming along of the conductor is an essential part.