Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Sergeant Rock]

A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

You can hear parts of it in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml

Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php

Thomas

Thanks, Thomas

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

You probably didn't mean it, but the wording here comes close to confusing 'Vaughan Williams' with 'British music'. Colin Davis, one of the greatest exponents of e.g. Tippett, would disagree strongly that he 'wouldn't touch British music with a 10 foot pole'. 

I am not sure if I would cast Sir Colin as a great exponent of British music in general. Yes he did record Britten, Elgar, Holst, and a little a bit of Walton (in addition to Tippett that you mentioned). But these composers are probably as "cosmopolitan" as they come. They are British but they have quite a bit of international stature. Can you think of a British composer whose music would not be heard if it wasn't for Sir Colin? This is not a knock on Sir Colin, his niche really wasn't as an exponent of British music in general.

[lukeottevanger]

I am not sure if I would cast Sir Colin as a great exponent of British music in general. Yes he did record Britten, Elgar, Holst, and a little a bit of Walton (in addition to Tippett that you mentioned). But these composers are probably as "cosmopolitan" as they come. They are British but they have quite a bit of international stature. Can you think of a British composer whose music would not be heard if it wasn't for Sir Colin? This is not a knock on Sir Colin, his niche really wasn't as an exponent of British music in general.

Well, yes, back to Tippett - Davis was the foremost recording conductor of his music from the mid 60s onwards, the operas (his most important works, probably) above all; that is, from the time that Tippett began to carve out a reputation beyond the shores of Britain. I have a feeling the two facts are not unrelated. The premieres of most of Tippett's major orchestral works from the Concerto for Orchestra right up to The Rose Lake, and of his 3rd and 4th operas, were entrusted to Davis. Somewhere or other I have quotations from Tippett himself full of gratitude for the work Davis did on his behalf, which I feel was probably instrumental in turning the composer from a 'British' figure into one of international stature.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I remember Tippett's 3rd being performed at the Concertgebouw. It was in 1970s and the conductor was, iirc, Colin Davis. I didn't attend (I was more into Mahler and Wagner at the time).

[Lethevich]

A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

I quite liked his 6th with the same orchestra, which was/is on Operashare. It didn't gain any positive reaction when I reposted it on the forum at the time. I think one person positively hated the performance

[Mark G. Simon]

Well, yes, back to Tippett - Davis was the foremost recording conductor of his music from the mid 60s onwards, the operas (his most important works, probably) above all; that is, from the time that Tippett began to carve out a reputation beyond the shores of Britain. I have a feeling the two facts are not unrelated. The premieres of most of Tippett's major orchestral works from the Concerto for Orchestra right up to The Rose Lake, and of his 3rd and 4th operas, were entrusted to Davis. Somewhere or other I have quotations from Tippett himself full of gratitude for the work Davis did on his behalf, which I feel was probably instrumental in turning the composer from a 'British' figure into one of international stature.

This is definitely true. Tippett was writing these scores that were monstrously difficult and awkward for the players. He had a reputation as someone with a lot of ideas that he didn't know how to express. Colin Davis' recordings showed how gorgeous the music could really sound when it was performed properly. I think his recordings of The Midsummer Marriage and the Third Symphony in particular turned a lot of heads. From the illustrations in the accompanying booklet, it seems apparent that the Covent Garden production of the Midsummer Marriage which Davis recorded really captured the atmosphere of the work, and allowed it to come off on stage in a way that counteracted his reputation for bad librettos (a flaw that unfortunately couldn't be disguised in his later operas).

[lukeottevanger]

...in a way that counteracted [Tippett's] reputation for bad librettos (a flaw that unfortunately couldn't be disguised in his later operas).

I think I'm the only person on earth who likes Tippett's libretti! At least, I feel they are of a piece with his personality and above all with his music - the same peculiar blend of awkwardness and courageousness which, to my mind, only increases the communicative human power of the whole. BTW, humour my posting probably Tippett's most famous non-libretto words, a passage whose oft-quoted closing words encapsulate Tippett's music perfectly:

This tradition is to create images from the depths of the imagination and to give them form whether visual, intellectual or musical. For it is only through images that the inner world communicates at all. Images of vigour for a decadent period, images of calm for one too violent. Images of reconciliation for the worlds torn by division. And in an age of mediocrity and shattered dreams, images of abounding, generous, exuberant beauty.

Sorry to derail things; back to VW (though the VW-Tippett link is an interesting one too....)

[eyeresist]

A while ago I listened to Colin Davis conducting RVW's 4th on the radio, with the Bavarian RSO.

You can hear parts of the symphony in this audio podcast on Bayern radio (about 40% into the sound file):
http://www.br-online.de/bayern4klassik/galleria/audio-williams-sinfonie-ID1218876987968.xml

Davis also discusses the music - in German!

Also: http://www.newberkshire.com/7bso-boston-symphony-colin-davis.php

Thomas

I should warn the unwary that this last link leads to a concert review by a certain "Karl Henning". 

[pjme]

I think I'm the only person on earth who likes Tippett's libretti! At least, I feel they are of a piece with his personality and above all with his music - the same peculiar blend of awkwardness and courageousness which, to my mind, only increases the communicative human power of the whole. BTW, humour my posting probably Tippett's most famous non-libretto words, a passage whose oft-quoted closing words encapsulate Tippett's music perfectly:

Sorry to derail things; back to VW (though the VW-Tippett link is an interesting one too....)

No no, that's fine! I do like Tippett's writing. Symphony nr 3 has a moving text and "Moving into Aquarius" (Paladin books 1974) is a great collection of essays and poems : "I am a composer .That is someone who imagines sound, creating music from the inner world of the imagination."

But back to RVW now!

[Lethevich]

Indeed, RVW time

Did he write any substantial (and good) instrumental/chamber music beyond the two SQs and phantasy quintet? I recall having heard the Hyperion/Nash Ensemble "early chamber music" twofer at some point, but it didn't make much of an impact.

[sound67]

There is a violin sonata that's quite intriguing:


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Nov07/English_sonatas_pcl2105.htm

It was written in 1954, it's among the "harsher" pieces in his oeuvre, no unlike parts of the 4th and 6th symphonies.

He wrote only a few piano pieces, none of them of any consequence. His "Six Studies in English Folk Song" are a popular work though. They're available in various guises (for cello, viola, clarinet etc.)

Thomas

[karlhenning]

I have Menuhin's recording of the Sonata, Thos; though I have not listened to it yet . . . fact is, I bought the disc for the Elgar Sonata.

But it's time I listened to the Vaughan Williams, of course.

[Lethevich]

Thomas - thanks, that sonata sounds unmissable

[vandermolen]

I agree with Thomas. The late, craggy Violin Sonata is my favourite piece of VW chamber music. My favourite recording is with the Music Group of London (including the late Hugh Bean, whose "Lark Ascending" with Boult is the best I know.) There is also the chamber version of the vocal "On Wenlock Edge, a wonderful work (although I prefer the version for full orchestra).

The CD below "The Lake in the Mountains", is an excellent collection of VW chamber works, including a fine performance of the Violin Sonata:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Chamber-Music/dp/B00006644H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1219484951&sr=1-1

[sound67]

Very true, and the string quartet performance is also very good. I have yet to see a truly bland, or poor, performance from the Nash Ensemble. Their Bliss Chamber Works CD is one of my top ten CDs ever!



I put the "portrait" twofer (was: Cala) forward to sneak in some even lesser-known British repertoire to annoy m forever. 

Though Stanzeleit's performance isn't bad either.

Thomas

[Dundonnell]

I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.

What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.

The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.

Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that

Anyway...I am returning  to my holiday for another few days

[sound67]

The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I have mixed feelings about the Haitink cycle, too. I often use the term "Brucknerian" to describe the specific nature of those recordings, by which I mean a majesty and an emphasis on line, not on colour (that's why I consider his RVW 8th a complete failure, it just sounds "grey" to me). The orchestra may have an RVW tradition, but I don't think there are many players left from the days of Boult.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that

Guilty. It just comes (too) naturally, doesn't it? I mean, if all the details are in the scores, why should a musician in Timbuktu not be able to play it the same way a player in London does? If he's of the same caliber (ok, it might be difficult to find enough of those in Timbuktu, so let's say, Hong Kong) and his instrument is, too (mich may be even more diificult) . Tratditions of how to play certain instruments (that Czech timbre in horn playing, how to describe it?) can alter the result, but if e.g. a German orchestra play under Norrington, couldn't he specifically instruct people to play in a manner he considers "British"? 

Thomas

[not edward]

Thanks for the violin sonata recommendation. I don't know this work at all, and I really like the craggy RVW, so this sounds like a must.

[Lethevich]

It really is superb - stands up very well next to the Elgar sonata. I prefer RVW's piano writing to that one, actually. The overall feel to the work is perhaps less nostalgic than Elgar's, but still surprisingly affecting. It is lengthy (thank God) and rather than going down the cheerful route of works such as the phantasy quintet, this is rather more ruminative and slightly beguiling in mood. The violinist's role is certainly less overtly folksy than in the Lark Ascending, and digging more into the music at times rather than serenely passing by. This is going to provide many rewarding relistens, I am sure.

The Nash disc is very strong, both in playing and recording (the 2nd SQ has just begun now and has grabbed me in a way that I can't recall the acclaimed and also great Naxos disc having done before). I am tempted to buy the English violin sonatas twofer to hear some of works by other composers (I haven't heard a note by Dunhill or Fricker)...

[Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich]

Oh, just stumbled across André Previns Sinfonia Antarctica with the LSO from the box set, what do you think about this one?



For those who don't know this one, I've got a snippet for you:

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw7-1.mp3[/mp3]

I must say it seems I love this celibidachesque interpretation much more than the one I preferred before (Bakels on Naxos). It's much slower and therefore more exiting I think. The speed (e.g. the first Andante is 11 minutes) goes well with this piece. Maybe it's just that the visionary Previn wanted to slow down the pole melting in 1967 already.