Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[drogulus]

I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.

What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.

The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.

Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that

Anyway...I am returning  to my holiday for another few days

    I agree with you entirely.

   

Oh, just stumbled across André Previns Sinfonia Antarctica with the LSO from the box set, what do you think about this one?



For those who don't know this one, I've got a snippet for you:

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/rvw7-1.mp3[/mp3]

I must say it seems I love this celibidachesque interpretation much more than the one I preferred before (Bakels on Naxos). It's much slower and therefore more exiting I think. The speed (e.g. the first Andante is 11 minutes) goes well with this piece. Maybe it's just that the visionary Previn wanted to slow down the pole melting in 1967 already.

    I've had this on the Pod recently and I'm trying to adjust to the slow first movement. On the whole I think Previn is a convincing interpreter but he's not my first choice in any of the symphonies, though I had the LP of the 5th and it was a serious contender, or so I thought at the time (decades ago).

[M forever]

I hesitate to reopen the discussion of 'idiomatic/unidiomatic' performances of VW's music. I have been on holiday in Norway and Sweden-in fact I still am
Having accessed the forum from a friend's house in Stockholm however I note that there is a reference to the point I made some time ago about Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica as unidiomatic but deeply impressive and convincing.

What did I mean by that? I must admit that it was the sort of remark which needed greater thought and consideration. Many of the points made subsequently impress me as very valid. There is a 'performing tradition' in VW which has developed over the decades since the music was first performed. As a consequence of the fact that first and following performances were given by British orchestras and that conductors like Boult and Barbirolli were particularly associated with these performances we do-naturally-think of such a 'performing tradition' as specifically British. A conductor like Vernon Handley is frequently seen as Boult's conducting heir-yet Handley's interpretations are not slavish imitations of those by Sir Adrian.

The reality that few non-British orchestras or conductors performed VW meant that it was extremely difficult to compare or contrast these interpretations with possible alternatives. We talk about conductors brought up in the central European traditions of Bruckner and Mahler-composers whose music was relatively little heard in Britain until later in the 20th century.

Haitink is such a conductor. Some of us then assume that he can bring a different perspective to the interpretation of VW.
Yet, of course, Haitink recorded his VW cycle with the London Philharmonic-the orchestra most particularly associated with Boult's performances and recordings on early LP. The Haitink cycle has been criticised in some quarters. Some people-including myself- admire the performance of the Sinfonia Antartica because it appears to invest that work with a majesty and grandeur which elevates a piece which can seem incidental to the VW symphonic canon into a more substantial and genuinely 'symphonic' work. Is this then just a 'better' performance? Perhaps so. Is it 'unidiomatic'? Probably not. Is Haitink's interpretation of the 'London Symphony' unidiomatic? Well, it is 'different'.

I apologise for not being able to be more 'specific' or necessarily helpful. Perhaps critics (and some of us) are just being a bit lazy in using words like 'unidiomatic' without more clearly defining what we mean by that

Anyway...I am returning  to my holiday for another few days

Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is. You and some other posters made some valid points regarding how "authentic" or "idiomatic" performing traditions can come into life and are handed down to the next generations of performers, and all that is very true in general, but none of that answers the question what characterizes an "idiomatic" performance of this music - or not.

BTW, did you go to the Vasa museum in Stockholm? Extremely impressive.

[Dundonnell]

No, I did not go to the Vasa Museum on this trip but I have been there at least three times in the past with different friends.
It is-as you say-extremely impressive Sad that such a magnificent ship should sink on its maiden voyage before it even got out of the harbour A shorter maiden voyage than that of the 'Titanic'!!

[M forever]

Well, it looks magnificent, but the design/engineering wasn't so magnificent 

[Dundonnell]

Well, it looks magnificent, but the design/engineering wasn't so magnificent 

Indeed

[eyeresist]

I've had this on the Pod recently and I'm trying to adjust to the slow first movement. On the whole I think Previn is a convincing interpreter but he's not my first choice in any of the symphonies, though I had the LP of the 5th and it was a serious contender, or so I thought at the time (decades ago).

I've only heard Bakels and Previn thus far. I like Previn's performance but feel he could have gone further - if you're going to go slow, this music could stand to be even slower and grander.

[vandermolen]

Very true, and the string quartet performance is also very good. I have yet to see a truly bland, or poor, performance from the Nash Ensemble. Their Bliss Chamber Works CD is one of my top ten CDs ever!



I put the "portrait" twofer (was: Cala) forward to sneak in some even lesser-known British repertoire to annoy m forever. 

Though Stanzeleit's performance isn't bad either.

Thomas

OT I know but just to say that the Bliss Oboe Quintet is one of my very favourite pieces of chamber music.

[vandermolen]

Thanks for the violin sonata recommendation. I don't know this work at all, and I really like the craggy RVW, so this sounds like a must.

More "craggy VW" for you:

Fantasia on the Old 104th for Piano and Orchestra

Piano Concerto

Symphony 9

Less craggy perhaps, but my favourite VW unknown work is the late cantata "Epithalamion", a beautiful score.

[greg]

Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is. You and some other posters made some valid points regarding how "authentic" or "idiomatic" performing traditions can come into life and are handed down to the next generations of performers, and all that is very true in general, but none of that answers the question what characterizes an "idiomatic" performance of this music - or not.

BTW, did you go to the Vasa museum in Stockholm? Extremely impressive.

I don't think anyone has a good answer without any scores, M.....
to be able to say you "know" a composer's idiom, i think, definitely requires several scores and lots of time- so probably no one who regularly posts on this thread could say anything worthwhile (unless i'm proven wrong)  .

[not edward]

Piano Concerto

Symphony 9

Both amongst my favourite RVW works, particularly the concerto. I'll have to take a look at the other two you mentioned.

[vandermolen]

50th Anniversary of Vaughan Williams's death today as he died in the early hours of 26th August 1958, seven hours before Adrian Boult and the LPO recorded his 9th Symphony (being performed in an all VW concert at the Proms in London tonight). Sadly I wont be there as I have to take my daughter to catch the Harwich-Hook-of-Holland ferry, but I'll listen on the radio and at midnight I played the 5 Variants on Dives and Lazarus (played at VW's funeral in Westminster Abbey) and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm as my own little tribute.

[drogulus]

I've only heard Bakels and Previn thus far. I like Previn's performance but feel he could have gone further - if you're going to go slow, this music could stand to be even slower and grander.

     My rec is you go straight to Boult for Sinfonia Antartica. I have the 1953 mono recording (with the John Geilgud spoken introductions). This performance has never been surpassed and rarely equalled.   

     
     

     If mono isn't acceptable get the EMI stereo recording.

     

     And now I just want to look at this again after 46 years. This is my first ever LP purchase, long gone from my collection.

     

[eyeresist]

My rec is you go straight to Boult for Sinfonia Antartica. I have the 1953 mono recording (with the John Geilgud spoken introductions). This performance has never been surpassed and rarely equalled.
   

If mono isn't acceptable get the EMI stereo recording.

Thanks for the recommend. I've been anguishing slightly about which cycle to buy next - Boult/Decca often seems to be discounted because of the earlier, mono sound, making the comparisons I've read a little difficult to gauge. If those recordings are at least equal to the Collins Sibelius cycle (one of my favourites), I think I would be happy with it. Overlooking sound differences, the main differences between the Boult cycles seem to be small degrees of energy and speed.

I'm also wondering about the Haitink cycle - I've read it's quite grand and "symphonic" (if you know what I mean), but I've also read that it's banal and/or "unidiomatic". But how does that contrast with Boult, so often characterised as solid and straight forward?

to be able to say you "know" a composer's idiom, i think, definitely requires several scores and lots of time- so probably no one who regularly posts on this thread could say anything worthwhile (unless i'm proven wrong)  .

I think we are actually discussing idiom of performance, rather than composer. Specifically, whether there is a British "way" with Vaughan Williams' music.

[Lethevich]

The Boult mono sounds very decent for its age. If you are alright with older recordings in general these will not be difficult to listen to. As "interesting" as the Haitink may be, it doesn't compensate in overall value for Boult who practically owns several of the symphonies (1, 5, 6). The total inspiration of his interpretations IMO belie any thoughts of "stuffiness". If anything, that term better applies to later run-throughs by conductors performing the music on autopilot, such as Hickox. One of the Boults is basically the only "mandatory" cycle for fans - after that it's down to preference.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

50th Anniversary of Vaughan Williams's death today as he died in the early hours of 26th August 1958, seven hours before Adrian Boult and the LPO recorded his 9th Symphony (being performed in an all VW concert at the Proms in London tonight). Sadly I wont be there as I have to take my daughter to catch the Harwich-Hook-of-Holland ferry, but I'll listen on the radio and at midnight I played the 5 Variants on Dives and Lazarus (played at VW's funeral in Westminster Abbey) and Fantasia on the Old 104th Psalm as my own little tribute.

I think I'll refresh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.

(Your daughter coming to Leiden at last!)

[vandermolen]

I think I'll refesh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.

(Your daughter coming to Leiden at last!)

OT, Yes, the great day has finally come!

[vandermolen]

I think I'll refesh my (and RVW's) memory by listening to the Piano Concerto.

This is an interesting, enjoyable version of the PC, with the Slovenian RSO:

[vandermolen]

Proms tonight (26/8) all VW Concert. BBC Radio 3. Tallis, Job, Symphony No 9 etc.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Proms tonight (26/8) all VW Concert. BBC Radio 3. Tallis, Job, Symphony No 9 etc.

Thanks for the reminder! 

[scarpia]

Thanks for this contribution. You don't have to "apologize" for re-opening the discussion - it was never really "opened" since no one so far has been able to say what an "idiomatic" performance of RVW's music actually is.

I beg you pardon, MF, but I addressed precisely that point when the issue was raised.