Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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vandermolen

#700
My favourite recordings:

A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Handley-Emi, Daniel-Naxos

A London Symphony: Hickox-Chandos, Wood-Dutton, Barbirolli-EMI, Boult-Decca or EMI

A Pastoral Symphony: Previn-RCA

Symphony No 4: Berglund-EMI, Daniel-Naxos, Thomson-Chandos, Boult-EMI, Mitropolous-Sony

Symphony No 5: Barbirolli-EMI, Koussevitsky-Guild, Vaughan Williams-Somm, Gibson-EMI

Symphony No 6: Boult-Decca, Davis-Warner, Thomson-Chandos, Berglund-EMI, Abravanel-Vanguard/Silvrerline, Haitink-EMI, Stokowsky-Sony

Symphony 7: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI

Symphony No 8: Previn-RCA

Symphony No 9: Stokowski-Cala,Thomson-Chandos, Slatkin-RCA, Handley-EMI (for the harps at the end)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

sound67

#701
Ahhh, here we go again. And why wouldn't we ...  0:)

A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Boult-EMI (it always boils down to Boult-only for me)
London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)
6th Symphony: A.Davis-Teldec (HIS only great one), Handley-EMI-RLPO (not the LPO this time), Berglund-EMI (just re-released), Abravanel-Silverline(DVD-A)
Sinfonia Antartica: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI, Previn-RCA
8th Symphony: Handley-EMI, Boult-Decca
9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI

The Hickox-Chandos "London" of course is a special case. On interpretive grounds, I do not rate it very highly (in a review back then I found it too "Elgarian"), but of course it's a worthwile addition to the RVW discography, if only to prove RVW was right.

700+ replies, closing in on 19,000 page views. Uncle Ralph isn't doing badly for a composer whose music "does not stand on its own"  ;)

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

rickardg

Thanks for posting your pearls, Luke, even if it seems to turn out to be before swines... :-)

Quote from: lukeottevanger on August 31, 2008, 08:30:39 AM
Enough talking for today, I just listened to VW 5 (and its erotic counterpart, Flos Campi). My word, what a piece that symphony is - surely VW's most perfect symphony, no? No more theory or metaphysics for now - it's just damned beautiful, compelling, lucid, perfectly imagined and perfectly formed. And - let's get down to brass tacks - is that not one of the most sublime slow movements ever composed!?  ;D ;)

For those that crave theory and metaphysics there is an interesting episode of BBC3 Discovering Music that analyzes VW 5 (link directly to RealAudio file).

vandermolen

Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 01:12:44 AM
Ahhh, here we go again. And why wouldn't we ...  0:)

A Sea Symphony: Boult-Decca, Boult-EMI (it always boils down to Boult-only for me)
London Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Haitink-EMI, Handley-EMI-LPO (the earlier one), Arwel-Hughes-ASV, Barbirolli-Dutton
Pastoral Symphony: Boult-Decca, Previn-RCA, Thomson-Chandos
4th Symphony: Berglund-EMI, Thomson-Chandos, Vaughan Williams-Dutton
5th Symphony: Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI, Hickox-Chandos (his only really fine one), Barbirolli-EMI (not the earlier Barbirolli-Dutton)
6th Symphony: A.Davis-Teldec (HIS only great one), Handley-EMI-RLPO (not the LPO this time), Berglund-EMI (just re-released), Abravanel-Silverline(DVD-A)
Sinfonia Antartica: Barbirolli-EMI, Haitink-EMI, Previn-RCA
8th Symphony: Handley-EMI, Boult-Decca
9th Symphony: Slatkin-RCA, Thomson-Chandos, Handley-EMI

The Hickox-Chandos "London" of course is a special case. On interpretive grounds, I do not rate it very highly (in a review back then I found it too "Elgarian"), but of course it's a worthwile addition to the RVW discography, if only to prove RVW was right.

700+ replies, closing in on 19,000 page views. Uncle Ralph isn't doing badly for a composer whose music "does not stand on its own"  ;)

Thomas

We agree on quite a few and I could have added the earlier Handley London Symphony on EMI. Must listen to the Thomson No 2 and No 4.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

lukeottevanger

Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW's idiom seriously, and took the time to wrote you several lengthy posts on it, as well as on trying to correct some of your misunderstandings about the roots of VW's style. But, of course, and as I suspected, it turns out that what I wrote doesn't really fit with the way you wanted this discourse to go, and so you've conveniently disregarded it. Despite your protestations, I suppose it was always clear that you didn't really want a serious, musical reply of this sort, because as long as one was not forthcoming you could continue to go on disingenuously observing how surprised you were that no one could describe VW's idiom for you, and, therefore, you could also continue to imply that VW doesn't actually have such an idiom worth talking about. As indeed, in your last post, where you say:

QuoteEver since I asked about VW's "idiom" about two weeks ago, most of the posts regarding that were just personal attacks and what you probably would call jokes, so I am convinced now that there isn't really much more to the subject.

As I say, convenient, huh?

So, you ignored chose not to read my personal-attack-free, serious, lengthy and musical comments (and others from other people), and instead focussed on a short post by sound67 (because, as you later say yourself, it provides 'already enough information for me in this context' = fits what I want to believe/say better). So, you say:

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
Thanks for all the detailed replies. I didn't have time to read through all of them, however, the first reply to my last post by sound67, a self-declared VW expert, already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.

Again the disingenuousness, again the selective reading of replies to fit your own agenda. You've made clear that you have absolutely no respect for sound67's views, but here you pretend to take them on trust ('a self-declared VW expert' - we can all sense the sarcasm underneath that description) so that you can then extrapolate whatever meaning you want to from it:

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM...already confirmed what I had suspected, namely that VW's music can apparently only be appreciated by comparing it to more famous composers of his era, and putting these down. But I am not interested in that. I am only interested in music which stands on its own. Apparently, VW's music doesn't.....According to sound67, being a trained musician also stands in the way of appreciating his music. I do not know of any other composer where that is the case. In fact, understanding music from the point of view of a trained musician usually enhances enjoyment of just about any kind of musical style. Since that is not the case here, I think I will just pass and spend my time better exploring the music of more relevant composers than this marginal English phenomenon

That, of course, is horse shit from first to last; no serious responses on this thread (you know, the ones you chose not to respond to) have said any such thing; nowhere have I (for instance) felt it necessary to put down other composers in order to inflate VW's worth - and responding to sound67 I explicitly said as much. And nowhere have I (for instance) said or implied that being trained interferes with one's ability to appreciate his music.  As you rightly say, training tends only to enhances one's appreciation of a composer, and that was the case with me and VW - the more I knew of his music, the more I respected his achievements. VW stands on his own merits, merits to which your usually admirable ear momentarily seems hilariously (and conveniently for you) deaf. Which, again, suits you, because despite all your protestations to the contrary, I doubt there's a person on this board who believes that you approached this composer with anything like an open mind. You wanted to be able to say ridiculous things about him, and damn it, you're going to find a way to do so no matter what.

And why? The answer's pretty clear to all, I think, in the last words of the previous quote - as your insults grow more general, VW stops being a composer and becomes a 'marginal English phenomenon' - and in the following section of your post:

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PMThe only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence? Why do even English musicians prefer to perform the music of such composers that their local heroes, like VW, get compared to by the "experts"? Why is his music performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers? Wy does it not stand on its own, but only as a negative comparison to these by pseudo-intellectuals?

Why indeed? If only any of that were the case, you might have a point, but sadly it doesn't, it only reflects your tendency to make anti-British jibes at any opportunity (this one about there being no important British composers has been seen more than once before, I think). I would be very surprised if VW's music is indeed 'performed far less even in England than any given composer - and I mean any, even the more marginal figues included - from the standard canon of French - German - Austrian - Czech - Russian composers'. Having just been through the BBCSO's 2008 programme (I chose them because, thanks to Radio 3, they may well be the most-heard orchestra in the country) it's notable that among the major names VW is performed more than even Beethoven and Mozart, let alone any of the others (it's an anniversary year., so there's some inflation, but not much, I would guess).

As far as England being 'such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence', I simply think a little context is needed. Certainly it's true that in the prior to the 20th century British music was a minor force to say the least, but in the 20th century that simply doesn't hold water any more - where German-speaking composers have rather faded from the scene (major international figures born post-1900 grow scarcer and scarcer - Weill, Stockhausen.....erm, Lachenmann, Hartmann, Rihm....Blacher?) British composers have proved much more fertile - important and influential composers like Birtwistle, Ferneyhough, Finnissy; some of the leading European minimalists; younger figures at the head of the international music scene such as, Benjamin and Ades; and of course the two senior figures, Britten and Tippett at the head of it all.

Of course, the chances are you're just being deliberately provocative, for whatever reason, and you know just as well as every body else does that what you've been spouting here, especially in the last couple of posts, is a pile of crap.  ;D ;) :)

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PMThe only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence?
In your world? I don't know. I like some stuff of VW and Bax pretty much.

J.Z. Herrenberg

I don't want to waste words on the selectively obtuse, but yours I agree with wholeheartedly, Luke.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

sound67

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:23:12 AM
We agree on quite a few and I could have added the earlier Handley London Symphony on EMI. Must listen to the Thomson No 2 and No 4.

There's a Portugese recording of one of the RVW symphonies that is supposed to be very good, but I keep forgetting which symphony and conducted by whom? Does anybody know?  ???

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

vandermolen

Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 06:34:52 AM
There's a Portugese recording of one of the RVW symphonies that is supposed to be very good, but I keep forgetting which symphony and conducted by whom? Does anybody know?  ???

Thomas

Never heard of this. Sounds really interesting. Do you like Braga Santos? His symphs 1-4 definitely have echoes of Vaughan Williams.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

lukeottevanger

Quote from: Guido on August 31, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
Another thank you here Luke - truly great posts... I'm going to have to listen through Symphonies 3-6 again.

You say that the fifth is his most perfect, but I'm sure you've said that the sixth represents the pinnacle of his Symphonic thinking too. I guess this could be a subtle difference.

Yes, you're correct in your interpretation of my confused signals! I think the 5th is a 'perfect' symphony - it has lucidity, balance, integration, flow, magnificent material, a marvellous sense of musical symbolism, a compelling spiritual argument clearly expressed in musical (modal, rhythmic, melodic, intervallic, motivic, symbolic, textural, instrumental) terms. I don't think the 6th is perfect in these ways - but that does not imply in any sense that I think it is flawed or could be improved upon. Part of the wonder of the 6th, for me, is its skewed, deliberately imperfect nature - there is so little positive lyricism there, and what there is is found mostly at the beginning, before being subjected to various kinds of batterings and eventual annihilation. A work like that may be perfect, in its own terms, but 'perfect' isn't really the right adjective to describe it.

vandermolen

For me No 6 is the greatest as it combines the lyricism of No 5 with the violence of No 4, to create an absolutely compelling synthesis. It is also oddly disturbing and compassionate at the same time, which is also part of its greatness. The String Quartet No 2 is an interesting precursor to Symphony No 6.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

lukeottevanger

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:19:54 AM
For me No 6 is the greatest as it combines the lyricism of No 5 with the violence of No 4, to create an absolutely compelling synthesis. It is also oddly disturbing and compassionate at the same time, which is also part of its greatness. The String Quartet No 2 is an interesting precursor to Symphony No 6.

I agree - that's why I see the 6th as the culmination of the sequence (rather as Brian 10 is to 8 and 9!). When I use the word 'perfect' of the 5th I'm doing so in a specific way, trying to describe its special qualities. In any case, they are both supremely wonderful symphonies!

J.Z. Herrenberg

Inspired by this thread I have at last watched Tony Palmer's RVW documentary O thou transcendent (thanks to, lately rather absent, Thom).

All in all I find this an excellent introduction to RVW's life and work. You get a strong sense of the scale of the man's achievement and you cannot but admire him personally, too - a great and eminently sane human being, but touched by the revelatory madness common to all real poets, whether in words or music. My love for both the man and his music has increased markedly.

There is a lot of music in this documentary, which is a joy. Also very nice, for me, was seeing people I have long known only as a name and/or a voice, like Stephen Johnson, Imogen Holst and Evelyn Barbirolli. The one main criticism I have to make is the use of horrific footage to go with some of VW's more tragic and dark utterances. I thought it bordered on the obscene. We don't need graphic instances of human cruelty or suffering to know that Vaughan Williams knew about this, too. It seemed to reduce Vaughan Williams to a sort of Current Affairs composer. A grave mistake.

But, as I said - an excellent introduction. The other, BBC, documentary, The Passions of Vaughan Williams, complements it very well.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

sound67

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 06:38:48 AM
Never heard of this. Sounds really interesting. Do you like Braga Santos? His symphs 1-4 definitely have echoes of Vaughan Williams.

Found it: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2402

It was discussed on some other board. Never been able to get my hands on it.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Sergeant Rock

#714
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 03:41:59 AM
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW's idiom seriously...

Yes, that was a mistake, Luke. Thomas' initial reply to M ("Fuck off, you twit"...or words to that effect  ;D ) was the proper response given M's, by now, well-known baiting technique. That he managed to end up blasting not just Thomas but your entire island and its musical culture, history and achievement is, of course, typical of our resident cultural bigot (he's anti-American too).

I've often wondered why he has such a nasty need to put down Americans and Brits. His oft stated assertion that we must feel culturally inferior is laughable in the face of his constant effort to prove Teutonic culture superior in every way. Let's get Freudian: Could it be caused by the circumstances of his childhood and his country's history? I mean, our dads and granddads kicked his dad and granddad's ass not just once, but twice last century  ;D ....and then we occupied his city for nearly half a century. That might give anyone an inferiority complex coupled with a defensive need to put down others while claiming cultural and--dare I say it?--racial superiority for his team. ;D  (I'm allowed to poke fun at Germans because I am one...if not by nationality, by every other criteria, including blood, marriage and residency.)

Your posts weren't in vain though: I haven't read Mellers and I appreciate your distillation of his arguments. Your own defense and explanation of RVW's brilliant and quite unique idiom (obviously M is deaf) is equally thought-provoking and made a good read. Thank you.

Sarge (whose first two classical records purchased were RVW symphonies)
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

vandermolen

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:22:59 AM
I agree - that's why I see the 6th as the culmination of the sequence (rather as Brian 10 is to 8 and 9!). When I use the word 'perfect' of the 5th I'm doing so in a specific way, trying to describe its special qualities. In any case, they are both supremely wonderful symphonies!

I agree with what you say about Brian too, although No 8 is probably my favourite. We badly need a professional recording of No 10, which is a magnificent work. I was lucky to find the old Unicorn CD some time back.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

lukeottevanger

#716
Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:42:51 AM
I agree with what you say about Brian too, although No 8 is probably my favourite.

Mine too! 10 is the conclusion of the triptych, but I've always adored 8 the most. The quintessential Brian, and with his melodic invention at its finest. A startlingly beautiful work. As I said earlier in the thread, I have an obscure feeling that makes an interesting pair with VW 6, in fact. They both feed off these juxtapositions of aggression and lyricism so productively....

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:42:51 AMWe badly need a professional recording of No 10, which is a magnificent work. I was lucky to find the old Unicorn CD some time back.

Yes, I have that one - that's my old orchestra playing (though before I was born, I hasten to add!). You may well be right - with a good recording, this could be revealed to be 8's equal

vandermolen

Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 07:24:41 AM
Inspired by this thread I have at last watched Tony Palmer's RVW documentary O thou transcendent (thanks to, lately rather absent, Thom).

All in all I find this an excellent introduction to RVW's life and work. You get a strong sense of the scale of the man's achievement and you cannot but admire him personally, too - a great and eminently sane human being, but touched by the revelatory madness common to all real poets, whether in words or music. My love for both the man and his music has increased markedly.

There is a lot of music in this documentary, which is a joy. Also very nice, for me, was seeing people I have long known only as a name and/or a voice, like Stephen Johnson, Imogen Holst and Evelyn Barbirolli. The one main criticism I have to make is the use of horrific footage to go with some of VW's more tragic and dark utterances. I thought it bordered on the obscene. We don't need graphic instances of human cruelty or suffering to know that Vaughan Williams knew about this, too. It seemed to reduce Vaughan Williams to a sort of Current Affairs composer. A grave mistake.

But, as I said - an excellent introduction. The other, BBC, documentary, The Passions of Vaughan Williams, complements it very well.

Interesting views Johan, I totally agree about the grotesquely incongruous newsreel images which were juxtaposed with Symphony 9. They were the least convincing part of the documentary (they could have shown Stonehenge or Salisbury Plain instead, which would have been much more in keeping with the philosophic background to the music.) Even Ken Russell in a rather disappointingly staid TV documentary on Vaughan Williams many years ago (well, there was one good scene of Ken Russell dancing in a disco with Ursula Vaughan Williams- then in her mid 70s-to the music of A London Symphony) handled the 9th Symphony more appropriately and movingly.  There is an entertainingly furious exchange of letters going on at the moment in the Journal of the VW Society over the Palmer documentary. It is not like here, where we all have so much respect for each others' views  ;D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:49:23 AM
Mine too! 10 is the conclusion, but I've always adored 6 the most.

You mean 8.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 07:49:23 AM
with a good recording, this could be revealed to be 8's equal

No 8 is dark, tense, rich, varied. No 10 is brighter, perhaps less diverse, but seems to do as much, and even more, with less... I know all 32 symphonies almost by heart, and I can't really choose a favourite. There are beauties everywhere.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:54:31 AM
Interesting views Johan, I totally agree about the grotesquely incongruous newsreel images which were juxtaposed with Symphony 9.

And with No. 6, too.

QuoteThere is an entertainingly furious exchange of letters going on at the moment in the Journal of the VW Society over the Palmer documentary. It is not like here, where we all have so much respect for each others' views  ;D

Yes, this Forum is blessed.

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

vandermolen

Quote from: sound67 on September 01, 2008, 07:28:40 AM
Found it: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2402

It was discussed on some other board. Never been able to get my hands on it.

Thomas

What a fascinating looking disc. I just read the review. Frustratingly it is on the long-gone Portugalsom label.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).