Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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M forever

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 03:41:59 AM
Thanks, M. Against all my better judgement, I took your request for information on VW’s idiom seriously, and took the time to wrote you several lengthy posts on it, as well as on trying to correct some of your misunderstandings about the roots of VW’s style. But, of course, and as I suspected, it turns out that what I wrote doesn’t really fit with the way you wanted this discourse to go

Why all this upsetness? I said thanks for all the replies, but I simply totally lost interest in the subject before I got to reading all of them when I started reading and the very first post was yet another of those silly comparisons. I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.

You can't say that what you wrote doesn't fit my expectations because I didn't read what you wrote (and therefore have no opinion about it). But this forum is not just for my entertainment, it is for everybody who reads it, and it seems from the many replies you got (which I only scanned very superficially) that other people welcomed that you took the time to write some views, so your time wasn't wasted, it appears to me.

It looks as if I stimulated a more detailed and focused discussion with my "provocative" questions. Sure, there are also the usual upset posts from some people whose cultural inferiority complexes simply can not digest that kind of questions. I am always amazed at how quickly Sarge goes from an apparently sane and calm person to all world wars and all the "butt kicking" his grandfather apparently did (what does that have to do with music?), even though after living in Germany for several decades, he should know that most of the people from there of my generation look at all these things in a very different way - when I talk about music, I talk about music, not about won or lost wars - funny that somebody who actually took part in the - failed - attempt to bomb a tiny, tiny country back into the stone age has the nerve to accuse me who has never taken part in any military action against anyone. And to seek pride in the alleged military exploits of his ancestors. Strange.

But apart from that kind of noise, it looks like you have a lively discussion going on here, so the fact that I lost interest in the subject should not diminish your enjoyment of the discussion.

lukeottevanger

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:18:38 PM
Why all this upsetness? I said thanks for all the replies, but I simply totally lost interest in the subject before I got to reading all of them when I started reading and the very first post was yet another of those silly comparisons. I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.

Well, at least you clearly read my last long post in reply to you, so you now know full well that IMO (and not just mine) it's perfectly possible to discuss VW in the way you describe - all my posts do so, and so do most of the others here. Just not the one from sound67 you chose to concentrate on (and you'll notice if you read it that in the next post I immediately pointed out that bashing Mahler isn't necessary in order to praise VW). So, taking my word for it, you can safely let yourself be interested once more.  ;D

I thought I made the reason for my 'upsetness' pretty clear, so I won't go into it again.

No comment on the rest.

M forever

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
Well, at least you clearly read my last long post in reply to you

Sorry, I only read the first paragraph or so and quickly scanned over some of the other posts but like I said, the interest in the subject for me was simply over after the first post.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
and you'll notice if you read it that in the next post I immediately pointed out that bashing Mahler isn't necessary in order to praise VW

I just read that. I agree. Why then does it come up all the time, especially when such less influential composers are discussed?

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
I thought I made the reason for my 'upsetness' pretty clear, so I won't go into it again.

I understood that, but like I said, I don't your effort was wasted because other people apparently found them valuable to read.

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
No comment on the rest.

No, I guess we will have to leave it up to Sarge to explain why I have a huge pile of CDs of mostly Russian music sitting on the table next to me when according to him, I hate all countries and their music which won the war (and remember, Russia, unlike Britain, really won their part of the war). The only non-Russian CDs I have here next to me are Messiaen and Ravel. Yes, I guess that's what we Nazis listen to all the time.

vandermolen

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:45:00 PM
(and remember, Russia, unlike Britain, really won their part of the war).

OT

In 1940 Britain managed to resist invasion at a time when Russia was allied to Nazi Germany and the US was following a policy of neutrality.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

lukeottevanger

Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.

Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.

vandermolen

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 02:55:13 PM
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.

Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.

Good point and nicely brought back to VW!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

drogulus

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 01:18:38 PM
I hadn't even thought of comparing and "measuring" VW against Mahler. I am just tired, tired, tired to death of all these silly comparisons. If it doesn't seem possible to discuss somebody's music without putting a lot of other composers down, then I am not interested in the discussion.



      You should think about it if you want to understand what the posters are talking about. Perhaps since you've lost interest it doesn't matter any more. The comparison is not about the ultimate merit of the respective composers (in my case Vaughan Williams and Mahler are my favorite composers), but about how the differences can be usefully explained and how the methods of Vaughan Williams may account for a resistance to his music. Even if you find the explanations have merit you're not obligated to join the fan club.

     When posters try to counter the anti-modernists by exposition about how wonderful Schoenberg really is for the following technical reasons (it's really just like Brahms and the logical next step in the development of German music etc.) I have to smile: what does this have to do with liking the music? This might be interesting in itself but doesn't provide a good reason to change your mind about a compoer. Maybe all kinds of composers have really fabulous reasons for what they do, but my reaction is I still don't have to like it.

     The same applies to Vaughan Williams. We explore these differences because we love the music, and in a small set of cases some curious people might be tempted to explore the music further based on what they read. This doesn't amount to anything more than that, in my view, and certainly not a proof that Vaughan Williams is a better composer than Mahler.

Quote from: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 03:02:21 PM
Good point and nicely brought back to VW!

     Yeah, but....war?  ;D
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M forever

Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?
Stout? Isn't that a beer? I wouldn't worry about the meaning since he or she is most likely drunk when he/she wrote it.

karlhenning

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 02:55:13 PM
Needn't be OT, if we can wrest it towards VW's happily non-jingoistic Song of Thanksgiving, commissioned by the BBC in 1943 as "a work to be performed when Hitler's Germany is defeated". Indicative of VW, the composer who was active in his support for the humane treatment of German POWs IIRC, the text he selected from Kipling is full of forgiveness rather than triumph or gloating.

Teach us delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter springs,
forgiveness free of evil done,
and love to all men 'neath the sun.

Artfully done, Luke!

karlhenning

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

Peculiar, isn't it?  To our ears, the music hardly "means" this text, where it wonderfully suits "I heard the voice of Jesus say . . . ."

In short, M, that archaic hymn-verse rhetorically wonders why the world resists God's work and agent of Redemption.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

It is part of Psalm 2. Look here:

http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Psalm_2

Examples of other translations:

1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD

(KING JAMES Version)

1. Why do the heathen so furiously rage together : and why do the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together : against the Lord, and against his Anointed.

(Book of Common Prayer)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

eyeresist

Quote from: M forever on August 31, 2008, 11:26:56 PM
The only open question which remains here is, why is England among all the major cultures of Europe the only one which is such a complete failure when it comes to music of any kind of status or influence?

Now, M, such chauvinism is unworthy of you. Perhaps you are reacting against the gushing Anglophilia hereabouts? At least no one has yet referred to Vernon Handley as "Tod" :)
Actually, I'm surprised how popular Vaughan Williams is amongst American aficionados, more popular than most American composers. I wonder why...

I think you have made a cursory judgement based on minimal exposure to VW's music. My own experience is that he has a very individual manner, which takes time to appreciate (it doesn't help that, at least to me, much of his minor work sounds quite kitsch). Give the middle symphonies a chance and you may change your mind.

BTW, thanks for posting the verse above - "The Kings arise, the Lords devise" - good stuff.

scarpia

Started listening to Boult's EMI traversal of the symphonies.  Started at the end and have heard 9 and 8 a few times each.  In both, there are things I enjoy, although I don't yet hear the thread that ties the music together and makes them truely great symphonies.  In #8, I find the first movement, a set of variations without a theme, to be haunting and compelling.  The slow movement has some passages a beautifully dissonant harmony.  The scherzo is amusing.  The rest eludes my appreciation at this time.  In #9, I hear some impressive sonorities, some engaging counterpoint, particularly involving the reeds.  I hear very little coherence in it, so far.

Lethevich

Quote from: Jezetha on September 01, 2008, 03:42:16 PM
It is part of Psalm 2. Look here:

http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Psalm_2

Examples of other translations:

1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD

(KING JAMES Version)

1. Why do the heathen so furiously rage together : and why do the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together : against the Lord, and against his Anointed.

(Book of Common Prayer)

Ahh, spoiling my fun! ;D I was going to try to translate with an Elizabethan glossary (a very useful thing to have around, hehe).
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

vandermolen

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Lethe on September 01, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
Ahh, spoiling my fun! ;D I was going to try to translate with an Elizabethan glossary (a very useful thing to have around, hehe).

I remember from my Shakespeare 'fond' means 'foolish' (Lear uses it). For the rest the text isn't that hard to understand if you know your Elizabethans... More or less.  ;)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lethevich

Quote from: Jezetha on September 02, 2008, 01:41:30 AM
I remember from my Shakespeare 'fond' means 'foolish' (Lear uses it). For the rest the text isn't that hard to understand if you know your Elizabethans... More or less.  ;)

:) I was having trouble with "stout", and was relieved that the book included it - it must be pretty good, hehe...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

karlhenning

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 01, 2008, 06:57:35 AM
Yes, you're correct in your interpretation of my confused signals! I think the 5th is a 'perfect' symphony - it has lucidity, balance, integration, flow, magnificent material, a marvellous sense of musical symbolism, a compelling spiritual argument clearly expressed in musical (modal, rhythmic, melodic, intervallic, motivic, symbolic, textural, instrumental) terms.

And any composer would give an arm to be able to write anything as exquisite as the Romanza.

Christo

Quote from: M forever on September 01, 2008, 03:15:47 PM
Speaking of texts, the original text of the theme by Tallis is this:

Why fum'th in fight the Gentiles spite, in fury raging stout?
Why tak'th in hand the people fond, vain things to bring about?
The Kings arise, the Lords devise, in counsels met thereto,
against the Lord with false accord, against His Christ they go.


I know all the words, but I still can't figure out what the text is actually about. Can somebody explain or translate that into modern English?

Quote from: karlhenning on September 01, 2008, 03:35:20 PM
Peculiar, isn't it?  To our ears, the music hardly "means" this text, where it wonderfully suits "I heard the voice of Jesus say . . . ."

In short, M, that archaic hymn-verse rhetorically wonders why the world resists God's work and agent of Redemption.

As far as I know, the words Vaughan Williams really had in mind, are those from a hymn from 1712 by Joseph Adison on the same (Thomas Tallis) melody, and especially its first line: "When rising from the bed of death" (I've always been humming these words with the music and they fit rather well, in all respects  ;-)  :'( :) 8)

For Addison's complete verse, see: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/r/wriftbod.htm (with the music added for free, in a superb performance).  ;)



... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948