Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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sound67

Thomson-Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos)

Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on September 04, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.

I can't answer to this comparison, particularly, Thos, but I agree in the sense that complaints against his Nielsen cycle have puzzled me . . . .

karlhenning

Quote from: imperfection on September 04, 2008, 05:30:40 PM
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."

How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago.  :)

Kind of a strange statement, strikes me as.  Apt enough, in the sense that (a) both were capable and prolific symphonists, in an era when what they wanted to do with the orchestra was very much 'out of vogue', and (b) both composers were prolific and excellent in genres well beyond the mere tally of symphonies.

There are many ways in which the two composers don't 'match' well at all, though.  For one thing, compositional 'vogue' notwithstanding, Sibelius has always 'exported' well past Finland.  Where the Vaughan Williams symphonies for many decades remained primarily a local treasure.

lukeottevanger

There's some sense that each symphony has its own unique and self-contained tone (and moral/aesthetic tone, too), I suppose. Also the feeling some get of 'music-as-landscape' - something to do with large paragraphs etc. I think 5 is VW's most Sibelian symphony - and it's dedicated to him too, 'without permission', which may be no coincidence.

No time to think about it coherently now, though. Ought to be working...

Hector

Quote from: imperfection on September 04, 2008, 05:30:40 PM
"Vaughan Williams: A British Sibelius."

How accurate is this statement, and in what ways? I read it from a classical music magazine couple weeks ago.  :)

What magazine would that be?

I do not think so and if there is such a thing then it would be either Bax, mutual admiration, or Simpson, great admirer, but I am clutching at straws as Sibelius' influence was wide and he was liked by the British public and British conductors (Beecham, Cameron, Collins, Gibson, Davis, Rattle).

Christo

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 05, 2008, 04:08:20 AM
I think 5 is VW's most Sibelian symphony - and it's dedicated to him too, 'without permission', which may be no coincidence.

BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.

(The dedication reveals the same type of attitude towards the war as mentioned here before regarding RVW's text choice for his Thanksgiving for Victory / Song of Thanksgving.)
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

karlhenning

Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.

Also a reflection of a time when one did not as a rule publish such a dedication without the dedicatee's leave . . . even in cases where the dedicatee would find the gesture fitting or even flattering.

Christo

Quote from: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 06:56:52 AM
Also a reflection of a time when one did not as a rule publish such a dedication without the dedicatee's leave . . . even in cases where the dedicatee would find the gesture fitting or even flattering.

You're right, no doubt, thanks. But again: RVW couldn't ask for permission due to the circumstances just mentioned. So, it is a kind of statement after all, as there was no obvious reason why the symphony should be dedicated to Sibelius (he didn't dedicate his other ones to Richard Strauss or Prokoviev :-) - hadn't he meant a kind of "message" too.
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

karlhenning

Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2008, 07:04:09 AM
You're right, no doubt, thanks. But again: RVW couldn't ask for permission due to the circumstances just mentioned. So, it is a kind of statement after all, as there was no obvious reason why the symphony should be dedicated to Sibelius (he didn't dedicate his other ones to Richard Strauss or Prokoviev :-) - hadn't he meant a kind of "message" too.

True, indeed.

Dundonnell

#789
Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2008, 06:54:49 AM
BTW: The "without permission" primarily referred to the fact that at that moment in history (1943) the UK was officially at war with Finland, as it sided with Germany against the Soviet-Union (where Finnish troops were actively beleaguering Shostakovich's Leningrad) and no contacts of this kind (or any kind) were allowed.

(The dedication reveals the same type of attitude towards the war as mentioned here before regarding RVW's text choice for his Thanksgiving for Victory / Song of Thanksgving.)

Very interesting point! Great Britain's relationship with Finland was complex. The Finns were regarded as heroes in 1939-40 during the Winter War with the Soviet Union when sympathy was directed towards 'little Finland' in her heroic struggle against the military might of Russia and there was much admiration for the way in which the Finns gave the Soviet Army such a hammering. At that time of course Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were bound by the terms of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

My father-who had met the Finnish President, Marshal Mannerheim, in 1937-used to tell me that 'Finlandia' was played a lot at that time in Britain as a mark of solidarity with the Finns. My father played the timpani in an amateur orchestra and always found the opening of 'Finlandia'-with its drum rolls-fiendishly difficult to get right!

Then Finland allied itself(reluctantly) with Hitler in the continuing struggle against Stalin and Britain declared war on Finland. Whether this led to any reduction in the amount of Sibelius's music played here I don't know but it would be interesting to find out!

scarpia

Quote from: eyeresist on September 04, 2008, 06:58:15 PM
I think you've made a mistake starting with the last symphonies - give 4-6 a go, perhaps with someone besides Boult.

Well, I generally like Boult.  I believe I do have a Barbirolli recording of 5, a Haitink recording of 6.  For # 4 I think it's just Boult.


vandermolen

Quote from: Dundonnell on September 05, 2008, 08:42:58 AM
Very interesting point! Great Britain's relationship with Finland was complex. The Finns were regarded as heroes in 1939-40 during the Winter War with the Soviet Union when sympathy was directed towards 'little Finland' in her heroic struggle against the military might of Russia and there was much admiration for the way in which the Finns gave the Soviet Army such a hammering. At that time of course Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were bound by the terms of the Ribbentropp-Molotov pact.

My father-who had met the Finnish President, Marshal Mannerheim, in 1937-used to tell me that 'Finlandia' was played a lot at that time in Britain as a mark of solidarity with the Finns. My father played the timpani in an amateur orchestra and always found the opening of 'Finlandia'-with its drum rolls-fiendishly difficult to get right!

Then Finland allied itself(reluctantly) with Hitler in the continuing struggle against Stalin and Britain declared war on Finland. Whether this led to any reduction in the amount of Sibelius's music played here I don't know but it would be interesting to find out!

Yes, this is very interesting. The British nearly found themselves at war with the Russians in Finland in 1940 (Finland surrendered to the Russians before a British Expeditionary Force could be sent out; had this happened Britain would have been fighting Russia and Germany at the same time.)

Sibelius's courteous thank you to Vaughan Williams for the dedication of VW's Symphony No 5 arrived with VW in June 1946, via the British Council:

Sibelius said of VW's symphony: "It is a well-rounded, harmonious and vivid work.  Moreover I have seldom heard anything that is more English.  I do not mean that you were influenced by British folk songs but the symphonic grip seems to me to be English."

Sibelius did not speak English (when he met Vaughan Williams they spoke in French.) The letter was typed to VW in English. VW, apparently, would have preferred something incomprehensible in Finnish, written in Sibelius's own hand!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Dundonnell

I did not know that Sibelius could not speak English, Jeffrey. Had my father accepted Mannerheim's offer to arrange an introduction to Sibelius when he was in Finland in 1937 he would have had to organise an interpreter too since my father certainly couldn't speak French either :)

(If anyone is interested in the Winter War of 1939-40 there is an excellent Wikipedia article-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Although Finland had to make peace and cede important territory at the end of the war the Finns had inflicted appalling casualties on the Red Army-a fact noted with keen interest in Berlin!)

Sorry...nothing to do with VW, I know.

vandermolen

#793
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 06, 2008, 05:04:21 AM
I did not know that Sibelius could not speak English, Jeffrey. Had my father accepted Mannerheim's offer to arrange an introduction to Sibelius when he was in Finland in 1937 he would have had to organise an interpreter too since my father certainly couldn't speak French either :)

(If anyone is interested in the Winter War of 1939-40 there is an excellent Wikipedia article-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Although Finland had to make peace and cede important territory at the end of the war the Finns had inflicted appalling casualties on the Red Army-a fact noted with keen interest in Berlin!)

Sorry...nothing to do with VW, I know.

The Collected Letters of Vaughan Williams quotes Ursula VW stating that Sibelius didn't speak English. However, I'm aware that Beecham visited Sibelius in Finland and they conversed together. Maybe Sibelius spoke some English after all  ???

The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 09:17:08 AM
The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.

OT but grimly amusing:

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Dundonnell

Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 09:17:08 AM
The Collected Letters of Vaughan Williams quotes Ursula VW ststing that Sibelius didn't speak English. However, I'm aware that Beecham visited Sibelius in Finland and they conversed together. Maybe Sibelius spoke some English after all  ???

The Winter War is a fascinating episode in History.

I suspect that Beecham may have spoken French. He frequently conducted French orchestras and in 1938 was invested with the Legion of Honour by President Lebrun.

Dundonnell

Quote from: Jezetha on September 06, 2008, 09:24:54 AM
OT but grimly amusing:

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.

Poor Vinogradov's 44th Division was a mechanised unit trying to fight in waist-deep snow. He had lost his supply train with thousands of skis on board but, in any case, very few of his troops knew how to use skis. His men were cold, hungry(no field kitchens :() and totally demoralised.

("The Winter War: the Russo-Finnish War of 1939-40", William R. Trotter, Aurum Press, 2003)

M forever

Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2008, 04:36:26 AM
Sibelius did not speak English (when he met Vaughan Williams they spoke in French.) The letter was typed to VW in English. VW, apparently, would have preferred something incomprehensible in Finnish, written in Sibelius's own hand!

Sibelius' hands were trembling in his later decades (a consequence of his very heavy drinking for a long time?). He had a secretary to take care of his correspondence. Probably a letter in Finnish would have been typed, too.

M forever

Quote from: Jezetha on September 06, 2008, 09:24:54 AM
OT but grimly amusing:

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later, they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy.

I get the "grimly" part, but what do you find "amusing" here?

drogulus

Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
I don't know what you are talking about.  If a piece of music is going to last more than 10 minutes, it has to have some structure to it, or I will find it unintelligible.  I don't care if it is avante-guard or pseudo-romantic like Vaughan-Williams   It doesn't have to have an established structure, like theme an variations or sonata form, it can have a structure that is improvised, but it must have something.  Strauss tone poems, like Tod und Verklarung or Don Juan have structure, Sibelius's Symphony #7 has structure, Schoenberg's chamber symphonies have structure.  These Vaughan Williams pieces don't give me a sense that there is more to them than a succession of interesting sounds.  There are interesting parts and boring parts, and the boring parts do not have any relation to the interesting parts (that I can perceive).  At least in classical symphony I get the idea that the boring parts are there to lead into the interesting parts.  I'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.




    I think you know what I mean, which is why you replied with specifics to the points I raised. And it's clear that what you don't like sounds unstructured to you. It's frequently that way with me. I do get the impression that "pseudo-romantic" is the real problem here. If RVW had the decency to be more radical sounding it would be easier to give him credit for the structure the music has. This is the sliding scale I'm talking about. The "pseudo-romantic" doesn't innovate, he wanders. And if a surprisingly large number of listeners with high standards hear the missing structure, they must be pseudo-something, too.

     
QuoteI'd like to separate the interesting parts out and transform one of those 45 minute V-W blobs into a set of symphonic etudes lasting 7 minutes.

     I'd like to hear what you would come up with, and then we could compare it with the original for structural integrity. I'm less ambitious. I doubt I could make more than minor improvements.
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