Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: M forever on September 06, 2008, 11:10:58 AM
I get the "grimly" part, but what do you find "amusing" here?

Loss of kitchens weighs less than loss of men.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

M forever


J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: M forever on September 06, 2008, 02:25:40 PM
And you find that "amusing"?

Yes. Stupid inhumanity can take such bizarre forms.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

M forever

You and Uncle Iosif would have gotten along great, I think. He apparently had the same sense of humor.

vandermolen

Quote from: sound67 on September 04, 2008, 10:42:58 PM
Thomson-Scottish National Orchestra (Chandos)

Bryden Thomson's best work on records are his Nielsen and Martinu cycles, even ahead of the Vaughan Williams and the Bax.

Thomas

Yes, I agree with this up to a point and really like the Martinu set. However, I think that Thomson's Bax Tone Poems are generally excellent. For example I prefer his Nympholept to either of the other versions on Naxos or the much praised new Vernon Handley recording. The critics don't agree with me but I regard the opening of Thomson's version as more magical than either of the others. His performance of Christmas Eve is great too but their is no rival recording to compare it with.

His VW symphonies Nos 4,6 and 9 are as good as any I know and No 2 is very highly regarded too.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

sound67

#805
While I admire some of Thomson's Bax symphonies (particularly his Bax 6th, whose measured and powerful opening contrasts sharply with Lloyd-Jones's and Handley's swifter, more lighter-spirited readings - I was also vaguely disappointed with Del Mar's much-touted Lyrita recording of this) for their atmosphere and tonal weight, I find it difficult now to listen to his "November Woods" e.g. after devouring Boult's altogether more intense and dramatic version on Lyrita (possibly the greatest disc I purchased in 2007).



Several critics have declared Thomson's Nielsen "Inextinguishable" the best of all the recordings he made for Chandos. While this is not my favorite Nielsen work, I can say that Thomson's "Four Temperaments" and "Espansiva" compare favorably to the oft-praised Blomstedt Decca and Schoenwandt versions.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

vandermolen

#806
Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 12:49:18 AM
While I admire some of Thomson's Bax symphonies (particularly his Bax 6th, whose measured and powerful opening contrasts sharply with Lloyd-Jones's and Handley's swifter, more lighter-spirited readings - I was also vaguely disappointed with Del Mar's much-touted Lyrita recording of this) for their atmosphere and tonal weight, I find it difficult now to listen to his "November Woods" e.g. after devouring Boult's altogether more intense and dramatic version on Lyrita (possibly the greatest disc I purchased in 2007).



Several critics have declared Thomson's Nielsen "Inextinguishable" the best of all the recordings he made for Chandos. While this is not my favorite Nielsen work, I can say that Thomson's "Four Temperaments" and "Espansiva" compare favorably to the oft-praised Blomstedt Decca and Schoenwandt versions.

Thomas

I agree about November Woods and, like you, have reservations about his (Del Mar's) much-hyped Lyrita recording of Bax's 6th Symphony (the least successful of the Lyrita Bax symphony recordings I think). I will try to listen to the Thomson version today. I really like Bax's Northern Ballad No 1 and was always surprised that there was only one recording (Boult's on the excellent Lyrita CD.) In fact I prefer the boult to the new Handley recording on Chandos. It is more atmospheric I think.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: scarpia on September 04, 2008, 05:33:35 PM


Well, maybe that would be prudent.  Do you have a favorite recording of Martinu's 4th?


I like the recent Belohlavek recording (CzPO on Supraphon, coupled with a very good 3rd Symphony). But I must warn I haven't heard the highly-praised Turnovsky, so I can't compare. Neumann's OK, but the overly resonant sound drowns some of the detail.

Getting back to Vee Dubya - I'm with Luke on symphonies 4-6, great mid-century symphonies by any measure, especially the 4th (my single favorite VW work, and one of ironclad symphonic logic - it actually seems to be written as a kind of parody of Beethoven's 5th, which may account for its tightness). Symphonies 7-9 I find problematic. Of this trio I like 8 very much, but I agree that the quality drops off a bit after the first movement. 7 just sounds like a glorified film score (because it is), while 9 I just have never been able to figure out. It seems to belong in the category of "weird final symphonies," along with Nielsen 6, Shostakovich 15, and Martinu 6. But I get on much better with those pieces than with VW 9.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

sound67

Quote from: Spitvalve on September 07, 2008, 06:12:42 AMOf this trio I like 8 very much, but I agree that the quality drops off a bit after the first movement.

I don't agree. The three remaining movements are entirely characteristic of the composer: the winds-only "Scherzo" (English Folk Song Suite, Variations for Wind Band), the strings-only slow movement (Dives and Lazarus) and the bells-and-whistles toccata. It's supposed to be a light-hearted work, which is why I have a problem with Haitink's heavy-weather approach to it. When done in the right manner (such as the Elder-Hallé performance I heard at the Proms), it's a delightful piece. Beethoven composed a "light" 8th, too (I think I recall RVW referred to that as n example, but I'm not sure), and that Toccata positively sparkles.

The Antartica really is more of a series of "symphonic tableaux" than a symphony proper, but the tone poems therein are superb. I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

scarpia

#809
Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
I don't know why you're all getting worked up on the wind machine at all. Why not use one?

Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?  Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.  With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?

lukeottevanger

Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?  Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.  With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?

Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?

scarpia

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 08:59:27 AM
Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?

If you are referring to Strauss's Alpine, I think the storm scene with the wind-machine is a low-point, but as a relatively short, self contained episode in very long piece I find it less annoying.  I don't recall hearing a wind machine in Ravel.

Regarding my vow to put the Boult V-W set on the shelf, I've reconsidered.  I'm getting rid of it;  it's now up for auction for a file-sale price.  But this doesn't mean I've given up on V-W just yet.  I started listening to the next disc of the Boult set, Sym 4 & 6, and decided that for music this loud I need a set that has better engineering than EMI gives Boult.  I have the Thomson/Chandos set on order, and well as the Hickox recording of 6/8 (SACD).

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 08:59:27 AM
Does that mean Strauss and Ravel are also ham-fisted hacks?

Imagine Ravel using a whip in his piano concerto.



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

lukeottevanger

#813
Quote from: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 09:25:50 AM
If you are referring to Strauss's Alpine, I think the storm scene with the wind-machine is a low-point, but as a relatively short, self contained episode in very long piece I find it less annoying.  I don't recall hearing a wind machine in Ravel.

In Daphnis.

The Alpine Symphony has a thunder machine too! Now that's crass!  ;D ;D

And Messiaen uses a wind machine and a 'geophone' (a drum filled with rocks and rubble) in Des Canyons.....

VW is a model of restraint and purity in comparison  ;D

M forever

There is also a wind machine in Don Quixote. Apart from the already mentioned pieces, I can't think of any others that use it.

lukeottevanger


lukeottevanger

And, according to wiki (including some of those already mentioned):

    * Gioachino Rossini: The Barber of Seville
    * Richard Strauss: Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie (An Alpine Symphony) and Die ägyptische Helena
    * Ralph Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia antartica
    * Ferde Grofé: Grand Canyon Suite
    * Oliver Messiaen: Des Canyons aux étoiles..., Saint-François d'Assise and Éclairs sur l'au-delà...
    * Maurice Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé
    * Giacomo Puccini: La Fanciulla del West
    * Michael Tippett: Symphony no. 4

(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)

not edward

Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 07, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
(I'm not sure that Tippett specifies wind machine, though - IIRC it's just 'breathing noises' that are called for - which results in an unfortunate tendency for the piece to sound like an obscene phone call)
I seem to remember the Solti recording being particularly unfortunate in that regard.

Fortunately I have Tippett's own recording of it (back from when it was the BBC Music cover disc), where it's much less intrusive.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Mark G. Simon

I believe Tippett originally called for a wind machine, but once rehearsals were underway, he found that inadequate for the breathing sound that he really wanted, so at the performance, an amplified breathing voice was used.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: sound67 on September 07, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
I don't agree. The three remaining movements are entirely characteristic of the composer: the winds-only "Scherzo" (English Folk Song Suite, Variations for Wind Band), the strings-only slow movement (Dives and Lazarus) and the bells-and-whistles toccata. It's supposed to be a light-hearted work, which is why I have a problem with Haitink's heavy-weather approach to it. When done in the right manner (such as the Elder-Hallé performance I heard at the Proms), it's a delightful piece.

Well, one of the nice things about a board like this is it can cause you to re-listen and re-think. After reading your post, I pulled out my recording of the 8th (Bakels, Naxos) and spun it for the first time in a few years. It is indeed a delightful piece. One thing which struck me however: it follows very closely the template used by Hindemith in his Symphonia Serena, written several years before (1949 I think). I'm thinking particularly of the all-windy 2nd (scherzo-like) mvt. followed by the all-stringy slow mvt. Does anyone know if VW was deliberately following Hindy's example here?
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach