Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Dundonnell]

You all put me to shame

I could pretend otherwise but I have to confess that my early attraction to VW focussed on the drama, the glamour, the grandeur of those scores which made a more immediate impact on me as a young man-the London Symphony with its colour, its passion, its sad evocation of the passing of an age of Edwardian self-confidence, the 4th with its biting, rasping savagery, the 6th with its ferocious anger and bleak resignation and the Sinfonia Antartica with all its superb depiction of an unforgiving landscape and man's futile attempt to conquer that wildness. The other symphonies became favourites later but favourites they have most certainly now become(although I suppose I respond least to the 8th).

I wish that I knew more about musical techniques to be able to understand how composers achieve the effects that they do in the same way that I wish in looking at a painting that I could understand an artist's technique rather than simply responding to the painting as a whole, as a depiction of some person or scene.

Heyho, never mind...we do all love VW's music and that is what ultimately matters

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Heyho, never mind...we do all love VW's music and that is what ultimately matters

Exactly. And 50 years on, his music is still going strong. 

[lukeottevanger]

That's wind-power for you...

[Dundonnell]

That's wind-power for you...

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That's wind-power for you...

POLONIUS [aside]: How say you by that? Still harping on that wind machine. Yet he knew me not at first. He said I was a fishmonger. He is far gone, far gone! And truly in my youth I suff'red much extremity for Ralph's music- very near this. I'll speak to him again.- What do you read, my lord?

[karlhenning]

That's wind-power for you...

. . . and with a nod to Johan . . .

'Thine evermore most dear lady, whilst
this machine is to him, HAMLET.'

[scarpia]

Scarpia descriptions of his responses to music tend to focus around certain areas, as far as I've read them - he tends to mention his dislike of certain instrumental effects, his preference for certain contrasts of tempo and dynamic, and there's nothing wrong with either (in fact, sensitivity to these issues is just as important as any other type of sensitivity). But in doing so he tends not to talk about the notes themselves, and I think that's a shame, because it is there that VW's genius is most evident, I think.

Believe me, "the notes themselves" are my primary interest in any music.  My problem with V-W is that he obscures the sometimes very interesting notes in what I often find to be a poorly conceived context, whether that means stifling dynamics, meandering structure, or other issues.  Case in point is the finale of the 6th symphony, for which the entire movement is pianissimo, with directions such as "senze crescendo, sensa expressione," etc.  In the several recordings I have of this, with the volume set at a setting where the loud passages are listenable in other movements, I can literally hear almost nothing.  Mostly I hear crickets in the yard.  If I stand up and put my head directly in front of the speaker, tape hiss is as loud or louder than any sound coming from a musical instrument.  I can't imagine this would be any more satisfying in a live performance, except from the front row.   I know the music is actually interesting because one recording I have largely ignores VW's instructions and plays the music at a realistic volume level with some ebb-and-flow of dynamics (Hickox on Chandos).  If course when I mention this (above in this thread) it is pointed out to me that my desire to actually hear the music reflects poorly on my discernment.    I don't buy it.  There certainly is a cadre of foaming-at-mouth Vaughan-Williams fans here, but I believe these problems are the reason Vaughan-Williams is mostly ignored in the wider world of Classical Music.

For me, composers can be divided into three groups.  There are "the greats" who write pieces which I can listen to, beginning to end, with rapt attention, "the minors" (also know as "good part composers") who produce some good passages spaced by dross, and the ignorable ones which don't fascinate me at all.  I'm afraid V-W is decidedly on my minor list, which is a shame because the good parts can be very good, although sparsely distributed.

[lukeottevanger]

A number of misconceptions there, though, as I see them. First is that VW is 'ignored in the wider world of classical music' which, in terms of recordings and concerts, is simply and demonstrably not the case. VW sells, for one thing, more than many other composers do. But second is the implication that VW should have written his symphony with your speakers and your backyard crickets in mind.  The symphony was written for the concert hall, and in the concert hall it is audible and magnificent. Really, the idea that composers should be damned for making these extreme gestures - sustained pianissimo, lack of fast tempi - is a little ridiculous. It's the sustained pianissimo of the 6th's Epilogue that gives it its unique qualities - anything else, any kowtowing to dynamic precedent here, and the movement would simply not work.

No, these examples of sustained pianissimo or sustained slow movement - in VW, in Shostakovich etc - are not misjudgements simply because they tax your patience. And I think you're maybe making the mistake of seeing both VW and Shostakovich as traditionalists-who've-gone-wrong, rather than realising that the formal novelties of theirs are actually rather progressive gestures. To reinforce this, I'd point you in the direction of a contemporary piece which uses classical formal procedures, harmony which wouldn't have shocked Mozart, direct and popular-style melodiousness, every single bar lyrical and beautiful, the texts set well-known and loved - and is sustainedly ultra-hushed, ultra-slow and ultra-intimate for around 2 hours: Silvestrov's cycle Silent Songs. This is one of the most daringly avant-garde pieces I know, in a certain respect. Few people I know can stand to hear the whole thing (it would drive you mad!). But that's rather the point - the crushing, stifling memory-laden quietude and intimacy of the thing, capital-B Beauty itself used as a compositional parameter - it's certainly not a misjudgement on Silvestrov's part but entirely deliberate. The discomfort is intentional. And as with Silvestrov - evidently a modernist - so with VW and Shostakovich - denied their experimental status by those who tend to see writers of symphonies as reactionary. The tension (and requisite attention) that attends these pieces is part of the composers' plan: your sensing it doesn't mean that they've failed, but that they've succeeded. Your not liking it is a different matter, of course! 

[scarpia]

A number of misconceptions there, though, as I see them. First is that VW is 'ignored in the wider world of classical music' which, in terms of recordings and concerts, is simply and demonstrably not the case.

Depends on your definition of "wider world."  I couldn't help but notice that except for a few recordings of the most popular works, recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten by conductors who are reputed as British music specialists.

[lukeottevanger]

Doesn't really matter. Taking GMG as a microcosm of the classical music audience, it's pretty clear that VW has a following all over the place.

[M forever]

Scarpia's observation is still true though. What does that tell us?

[mn dave]

...recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten...

That must have been uncomfortable for him.

[lukeottevanger]

That must have been uncomfortable for him.

...back to the wind machine again, are we?

[lukeottevanger]

M - I suppose it simply tells us that performance traditions (by which in this case I mean who tends to play what, not how they play it) build up over time and for all sorts of complex reasons, and become rather rigid (an orchestra which didn't play VW in the past is unlikely to start a tradition of doing so now). It's a complex issue, music reception throughout history, and you of all people will know this perfectly well - it's a little disingenuous to suggest otherwise, to imply that the geographical performance history of a composer's music is necessarily indicative of its worth.

So the programming habits of orchestras don't tend to reveal anything (to me anyway) about the worth or otherwise of VW's music, or indeed anyone else's. Personally I marvel at this music because of the notes VW wrote, not because it is or isn't played a lot in Finland; the notes are enough to convince me of its stature and if the intricacies of performance history mean that orchestras in Finland don't play it, that says nothing about the music. 

[M forever]

an orchestra which didn't play VW in the past is unlikely to start a tradition of doing so now

Why not?

[scarpia]

No, these examples of sustained pianissimo or sustained slow movement - in VW, in Shostakovich etc - are not misjudgements simply because they tax your patience. And I think you're maybe making the mistake of seeing both VW and Shostakovich as traditionalists-who've-gone-wrong, rather than realising that the formal novelties of theirs are actually rather progressive gestures.

How do you mix Shostakovitch in this?  I see no parallel at all between the two.  There are a number of things by Shostakovitch which I'm not interested in, particularly the symphonies with too-obvious Soviet programs and that last quartet, but I put him in the first rank, a composer who created works of true genius. 

[lukeottevanger]

How do you mix Shostakovitch in this?  I see no parallel at all between the two.  There are a number of things by Shostakovitch which I'm not interested in, particularly the symphonies with too-obvious Soviet programs and that last quartet, but I put him in the first rank, a composer who created works of true genius. 

Sorry, wasn't it you who had the 'issues' with uninterrupted slow movements of Shostakovich's 15th Quartet?    That's why I 'mixed him into this'.

[lukeottevanger]

The parallel being that the one taxed your patience with his extended pianissimo, the other with his extended Adagio.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I couldn't help but notice that except for a few recordings of the most popular works, recordings of V-W are invariably made in Britten by conductors who are reputed as British music specialists.

Made in Britain - yes, overwhelmingly so. However, conductors like Haitink, Slatkin, Berglund, Mitropoulos, Bernstein, Abravanel, and Bakels cannot be pigeonholed as "British music specialists." (None of them are British even.)

(an orchestra which didn't play VW in the past is unlikely to start a tradition of doing so now).

Wouldn't this have more to do with the conductor than with the orchestra?

[scarpia]

Sorry, wasn't it you who had the 'issues' with uninterrupted slow movements of Shostakovich's 15th Quartet?    That's why I 'mixed him into this'.

Yes that is correct, but my comment there was confined to that particular work.  DSCH's string quartets are among my favorite in the genre.