What's to be and what's not to be considered as Music?"

[Alexander_Bystrow]

 
In my opinion,
not every composition out of musical sounds can be considered as Music.

In order to be music, the composition in question must be tonal, melodic, and
to be music of classical style - hearty and serious in addition to the above.

Music proper can't occur without melody.

It's not enough to express emotions in sounds.

With notes (and musical sounds) one should sing and dance. Well, or narrate.
One should not, for instance, draw or paint with them – the right things to do that with are brushes or pencils. When a composer draws with sounds, he does not deal with and write music proper.
Unfortunately, starting with the 20th century, quite a lot of authors struck out on this wrong way.

*   Opponent:

I can't agree to confining music in any way!
Everyone has his own, individual vision. Those, who see visual images, pictures, they "draw" or "paint". For example, Rachmaninov wrote his Etudes-tableaux, expressing quite concrete images. Isn't it Music?!

Others cannot see so, but can sing and dance or present music in yet other ways. All depends on one's own individual, inner vision of music. So what one person sees as a visual image, a picture, others can present as melody (a dance, a song).
Music is universal as a whole and individual in its parts.

* Reply to the opponent:

Oh, yes. Different people can have different visions and opinions and see music in their own individual ways. A lot depends on one's own inner, individual sense and understanding.
But the real, objective, right and true state of things does not depend on it and won't change.
We also know – Man is prone to error. People greatly differ in how easily they get misled and how gross and frequent mistakes they make are.

Different creative spheres belong to and are governed by different Muses, not by one, universal, as you wrote. Each Muse has her own ways and tools. If a composer for some reason (he can't, he won't, hasn't got taste) avoids melodic work and with musical sounds starts to do what is to be done with paints, brushes and pencils or follows another wrong course – say, that of 'theatre of sounds', then it means he sits down between two chairs (which stand apart from one another).

Try to sit between 2 chairs!  – Where shall you find yourself?  Anyway, not in the sphere of Music. Nor do you manage to get to the sphere of Graphic Arts. You just fall onto the floor.
Not few authors found themselves where they did not intend to be.

Thus, individuality and individual search are welcome till one has the right measure in him and the feeling of it.


As far as the Rachmaninov's Etudes-tableaux are concerned –
you fail to read carefully what I've wrote. Rachmaninov is a well known melodist and these etudes are really musical compositions. There is quite a lot of melodic content in them, deviations are scarce. The very name "...-tableaux" misled you.

Yet another thought to the point:
Music should always carry Beauty, even when it tells us about something very sad and tragic. In this respect music is comparable to belles-lettres, fiction, in contrast to non-fictional, documentary chronicle. Some authors lost the right path and sense and wrote chronicles.


----
AB
http://aleksandr_bystrow.musicaneo.com

[Karl Henning]

Music proper can't occur without melody.

So, in your opinion, a piece for unpitched percussion ensemble, is not music?

And: Why must music be tonal, in your opinion?

Thanks!

[some guy]

Hearty and serious was my favorite part.

No wimpy frivolity! This music must be hairy, have a booming voice, and wear a judge's wig (for preference).

[Sammy]

Hearty and serious was my favorite part.

Yes, that was fairly amusing as was the "tonal" requirement.  Then again, every individual is entitled to define music however he/she likes. 

[Cato]

So, in your opinion, a piece for unpitched percussion ensemble, is not music?

And: Why must music be tonal, in your opinion?

Thanks!

I will send the skeptic to Alexander Tcherepnin's Scherzo from his Symphony #1: all percussion movement, although not all are unpitched.

[Karl Henning]

And the inevitable follow-up question:  How do you define melody?

[some guy]

You guys took the bait again.   

Last I checked, we were all perfectly free to respond any old damn way we wanted, to any old damn thread, even if it was, as you say, "obvious trolling."

[The new erato]

Trolling? I think this was meant to make my day. I'm still ROTFLMAO.    I thank the OP for the fun!

[Fafner]

Any consciously produced sound in time can be considered music.

A fart as such is just a fart. Farting in two different pitches with a certain rhythm within a time frame is music. Yes, juvenile and primitive, but music nonetheless.   

[prémont]

Farting in two different pitches with a certain rhythm within a time frame is music. Yes, juvenile and primitive, but music nonetheless. 

It may even involve some signal value.

[Elgarian]

Hearty and serious was my favorite part.

Kind of like our posts.
Well, some of them.
A few, anyway.
Well, like this one.
Oh come on, it may not be serious, but at least it's hearty.
Alright then, I have to admit it's not hearty. But surely it's serious.
Isn't it?
Oh.
Is it a post at all, even?

[Karl Henning]

Shed Time

[The new erato]

A fart as such is just a fart. Farting in two different pitches with a certain rhythm within a time frame is music.

As long at the farts are hearty and serious.

[some guy]

Well, my farts are seriously hearty.

Also, if I may be serious for a second,

Oh, I can't?

Piffle!

[modUltralaser]

For me, intention is the first requirement I have for if I am to consider something musical or not.

[Gurn Blanston]

Any consciously produced sound in time can be considered music.

A fart as such is just a fart. Farting in two different pitches with a certain rhythm within a time frame is music. Yes, juvenile and primitive, but music nonetheless.   

Well, Haydn thought farting was music. In the midst of a rather serious Largo cantabile, the 2nd movement of Symphony #93 in D, just at a point where you are expecting something entirely different, he has the orchestra stop and the 2 bassoons produce a forte blast that is, and only can be, a fart. Haydn being himself, I can see him leading the orchestra on as though nothing untoward had happened as the audience was in stitches over it.

Haydn: Kommen Sie, Sir, bis dieser Gartenweg.

Audience: Oh yes, it's a lovely garden path. Oh dear, I think my wife has fainted....

[DavidW]

Gurn finding away to work in Haydn into every conversation!

"This is a good steak!"

"You know who else likes a good steak?  Haydn, that's who!"

"Yes dear."

[some guy]

For me, intention is the first requirement I have for if I am to consider something musical or not.

Interesting.

As you may already know, "intention" gets its very own fallacy, at least in literary criticism.

http://www.featcore.de/links/intentional_fallacy.pdf

[Elgarian]

As you may already know, "intention" gets its very own fallacy, at least in literary criticism.

And yet again, we can apply these principles to our posts. If only someone could just explain to me what my intention is, we could set about it straight away.

[Fëanor]

In my opinion,
not every composition out of musical sounds can be considered as Music.

n order to be music, the composition in question must be tonal, melodic, and
to be music of classical style - hearty and serious in addition to the above.

Music proper can't occur without melody.
...
----
AB
http://aleksandr_bystrow.musicaneo.com

So, Aleksandr, I presume you can arrange to not listen very often to what you don't consider music.

The rest of us will suit ourselves.