Bruckner 4, original 1874

[Sean]

This version isn't as interesting as the early 1873 version of the Third symphony but sheds some light on the creative process, seeing Bruckner working with his huge canvas of material to move stuff around and revising themes to see what works.

It shows how composition and art is a process of finding what aesthetics are already there- there is no creativity as such... His technical achievements are already in place but he's searching for those ideas that work aesthetically to transcend the intellectual construction.

I'm a great enthusiast of Scimone's Turangalila and I've seen her live in Dutchman but though she gets through the slow movement well the rest lurches around in a way to suggest she doesn't know what she's up against with this work's great recordings, at least of its final version.

The 1874 has its own scherzo if still with thematic relations to its future replacement and the last movement was revised in 1878 as the modest Volksfest finale , before being replaced in 1880.

[MishaK]

Simone Young is admirable, but you will find that Eliahu Inbal with his Frankfurt RSO is far more committed to this work and manages to produce a far more compelling structure and narrative of the whole. The "searching" that you perceive in the Young version is more the conductor and the orchestra feeling their way through unfamiliar territory. Inbal gives you more of the feeling of a masterpiece in its own right that it not at all less interesting than the 3rd. Keep in mind this was written after the 3rd and right before the 5th -- indeed the original version of the 4th conceptually points in some ways to the 5th (the solo horn acting as a sort of "MC" in the third movement, the same way the clarinet does in the finale of the 5th, for example) in a way that the later, more familiar, and far more conventional 1877 version does not. Of all ther Bruckner symphonies with multiple versions, the first version of the 4th is so drastically different (with one entirely different movement and two that are almost unrecognizably transfigured) that it should really be considered a separate work in its own right.

[Sean]

I don't know the landmark Inbal recordings but can imagine that a greater familiarity than Scimone seems to bring would make a difference. I've played her recording through a couple of times and begin to understand the work while feeling disaffected, and that might well only be due to what is an episodic approach... I think she's hard-working though- she knew every blinking page of Dutchman backwards in this concert performance a few years ago.

There's a stylistic shift to the real Bruckner emerging in the Fourth with thematic lines and time signatures lengthening, even if the array of material has a placing similar to its more organized successor. The Fourth's final version could perhaps have been published as another symphony but I'll stay with the conventional views for now...

[MishaK]

Just to be sure you're not confused:

Claudio Scimone is an Italian conductor of mostly Italian repertoire. Simone (no c) Young is an Australian conductor, currently with the Hamburg State Opera. 

[Sean]

Ah yes...

By the way I got to know the Romantic from Karajan on EMI, then bought the DG on CD; don't know if there were any textural differences but the atmosphere in the analogue sound is timeless and indeed rustic...

[MishaK]

but the atmosphere in the analogue sound is timeless and indeed rustic...

...and texturally impenetrable. Sorry. Just not very fond of that reading, mostly for the way Herbie suffocates the inner voices with his "wall of sound." I'd take any of Wand, Böhm, Skrowaczewski, Celibidache, Klemperer, Barenboim and others over any of the Herbie versions any day.

[Sean]

Both the EMI Fourth and Eighth of 1958 I think it is are a little greyed out, but I like them. Tintner is on Naxos and I might give it a run through over the net, even though from his other work I feel he lacks gravity... I think I borrowed Klemperer a few years back and would like to hear the Bohm- I had his slightly turgid but still idiomatic Seventh on LP.

[MishaK]

Both the EMI Fourth and Eighth of 1958 I think it is are a little greyed out, but I like them. Tintner is on Naxos and I might give it a run through over the net, even though from his other work I feel he lacks gravity... I think I borrowed Klemperer a few years back and would like to hear the Bohm- I had his slightly turgid but still idiomatic Seventh on LP.

There is a live Böhm 7th with the BRSO on audite that blows away his DG studio version (and pretty much the rest of the competition).

[Superhorn]

   Those
"suffocated inner voices" could very well be the fault of the recorded sound, not Karajan .  Most of the recorded performances I've heard by him are perfectly clear-sounding .  But Bruckner's music is supposed to have a  blended ,resonant sound .  His music loses a lot in a dry acoustic , as Bruckner ws a famous orgnist who orchestrated in  a manner so as to sound rther like an organ .

[MishaK]

   Those
"suffocated inner voices" could very well be the fault of the recorded sound, not Karajan .  Most of the recorded performances I've heard by him are perfectly clear-sounding .  But Bruckner's music is supposed to have a  blended ,resonant sound .  His music loses a lot in a dry acoustic , as Bruckner ws a famous orgnist who orchestrated in  a manner so as to sound rther like an organ .

I grant that and completely agree. I have a live recording of Beethoven 9 from the 1962 opening of the new Scharoun Philhamonie, recorded only shortly after the DG recording that is in the 1963 set, with nearly the same singers and the sound is completely different. But since we don't have another Herbie B4 to choose from, my comments remain valid relative to the other available recordings.

[Parsifal]

I grant that and completely agree. I have a live recording of Beethoven 9 from the 1962 opening of the new Scharoun Philhamonie, recorded only shortly after the DG recording that is in the 1963 set, with nearly the same singers and the sound is completely different. But since we don't have another Herbie B4 to choose from, my comments remain valid relative to the other available recordings.

There are two, the EMI sounds a lot better, recorded by EMI Electrolla about the same time as the DGG recording.  I heard Karajan live once, Bruckner 8 with the WPO.  Best performance I ever heard of anything.  But I agree the DGG Karajan/Bruckner cycle is difficult because of the disappointing engineering (except for 5 and perhaps 6).

[trung224]

 Completely agree about Inbal. He was the first one showed how good the original edition of Bruckner's 4th symphony. I have heard Nagano, and Young but still liked Inbal best.
   The problem for me is the original version of Bruckner 4 too episodic and disjointed. The first time I heard it, I felt that I was listening Mahler, which each movements seem like masterpieces but the sum is less than perfect. To the end of his life , (perhaps from the Seventh Symphony), Bruckner really know how to form all of his ideas into one.
   About the normal version, unlike many fellow GMGer, I don't really get into Böhm's acclaim recording, and found them too formality, too rigid and unexciting. In fact, I found most of his studio recordings uninspried, but his live recordings, which reveal another Böhm, more brash, more dramatic, are wonderful. His live Seventh on Andante, Eight on EMI or Palexa are among my favorite performances.

[Sean]

Nice to read that trung, in the first movement the material indeed moves around in a somewhat Mahlerian pace and though I haven't persevered with it too much, and can't be quite sure, I don't believe in it and feel it was revised years later by a wiser mind for good reasons.

[TheGSMoeller]

Inbal is good with the earlier ones, his original 3rd might be he best out there, and I've been enjoying the 1874 4th from Nagano, this is the recording that really made me appreciate the original version and realize its own successes.

[MishaK]

There are two, the EMI sounds a lot better, recorded by EMI Electrolla about the same time as the DGG recording. 

The libe Herbie LvB 9 that I have is from the opening concert of the Philharmonie and was issued as part of a 100th anniversary set published jointly by the BPO and a German newspaper. Not sure what label was the source. The only difference between that and the DG studio version cast-wise is a terrible Italian tenor who can't pronounce a German word properly to save his life.

[Parsifal]

The libe Herbie LvB 9 that I have is from the opening concert of the Philharmonie and was issued as part of a 100th anniversary set published jointly by the BPO and a German newspaper. Not sure what label was the source. The only difference between that and the DG studio version cast-wise is a terrible Italian tenor who can't pronounce a German word properly to save his life.

I'm confused.  I thought we were still discussing HvK Bruckner 4 recordings (which is what my comment referred to).

[MishaK]

I'm confused.  I thought we were still discussing HvK Bruckner 4 recordings (which is what my comment referred to).

Sorry. I'm the confused one. That is indeed what you were discussing. You quoted my text regarding the differences between the live and studio LvB 9, so I mistakenly thought that was what you were referring to.

[Parsifal]

Sorry. I'm the confused one. That is indeed what you were discussing. You quoted my text regarding the differences between the live and studio LvB 9, so I mistakenly thought that was what you were referring to.

Ooops, you discussed both Beethoven and Bruckner in the post I quoted, as I read it.

In any case, most Karajan DG recordings from the 70's are terribly compromised by bad audio engineering.  I find his catalog from the 60's contains many revelations, as does the old EMI and Decca catalog.