Author Topic: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"  (Read 23336 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2013, 03:31:39 AM »
I tried for three decades (in the case of Debussy). Finally hearing La Mer live at a concert in Mannheim (Dutoit conducting the O National de France) provided the breakthough moment. It's been love ever since  8)

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Love stories like that.  Less dramatically with myself, as with the Mahler symphonies and Bruckner . . . once the music clicks with you, all the barriers are obliterated, no material for a post-mortem . . . .
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Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2013, 09:35:54 AM »
How about composers instead of recordings?  I submit Ravel and Debussy.  I tried for almost a decade to "get" them.  At last I've given up on them and written them of, and I feel SOOOOOO much better now.

I'm still in that same boat. The odd thing is, I'm a fan of composers who were heavily influenced by Debussy, like Martinu and Lutoslawski. But the D Man himself still puts me to sleep.
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Offline RJR

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2013, 02:35:19 PM »
Debussy is my second favorite composer. Beethoven is, and will always remain, number one.

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2013, 03:23:34 PM »
I have pretty much everything they ever wrote, in multiple recordings.  Just not for me.

"You don't know what you like, you like what you know" Ernst Gombrich (paraphrase)

Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2013, 09:01:41 AM »
Anything with Thielemann. Also Pavo Järvi. I don't really get what's supposed to be so great about what he does (fast and lean with no character has been done before and better).

Offline Brian

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2013, 09:04:10 AM »
Pavo Järvi. I don't really get what's supposed to be so great about what he does (fast and lean with no character).
Sounds 100% like my opinion of Neeme.

Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2013, 09:05:32 AM »
Muti's Philadelphia Scriabin. It seems like pretty much everyone's go-to set, and it doesn't sound bad at first listen, but something always felt wrong and when I did some detailed a-b comparisons (clips should still be available somewhere on the board) found that shocking amount of detail is nowhere to be heard, blended, smoothed over and completely buried - Karajan-at-his-worst style. Ditched the set promptly.

That's sadly the sound Muti all too often seems to go for, which is why I rarely go to his concerts here in Chicago. Though he surprised me positively with a wonderfully alive Bruckner 1, of all things.

Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2013, 09:07:07 AM »
Sounds 100% like my opinion of Neeme.

But Neeme at least produced competently autopiloted recordings of exotic material nobody else bothered to record before him.  ;) Not sure why we need Paavo's recordings.

Offline Brian

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2013, 09:13:09 AM »
But Neeme at least produced competently autopiloted recordings of exotic material nobody else bothered to record before him.  ;) Not sure why we need Paavo's recordings.
That's absolutely true (although last year Neeme put out some stone-hearted CDs of Chabrier and Saint-Saens), but it's also very frustrating because of that lack of choice. Like, right now we're supposed to all be so thankful to Chandos for having Neeme do the Atterberg symphonies, but the performances sound completely conductorless.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2013, 09:14:55 AM »
. . . stone-hearted . . . .

How . . . E-stone-ian.

(Oh, I kid.)

(Or do I?)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Todd

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2013, 09:17:36 AM »
although last year Neeme put out some stone-hearted CDs of...Saint-Saens


I would have thought this a huge improvement.
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Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2013, 09:58:08 AM »
That's absolutely true (although last year Neeme put out some stone-hearted CDs of Chabrier and Saint-Saens), but it's also very frustrating because of that lack of choice. Like, right now we're supposed to all be so thankful to Chandos for having Neeme do the Atterberg symphonies, but the performances sound completely conductorless.

Right, but my point is that Neeme was at least producing something arguably original in that nobody had bothered recording that stuff at all, with or without conductor/heart of any material of choice. Whereas Paavo is merely duplicating existing (mostly mainstream) catalog material without much distinction.

Offline Brian

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2013, 10:16:18 AM »
I like Jarvi's Beethoven symphonies, at least the ones I've heard, 3, 8, 2 and 6.  The energetic and transparent interpretations are just how I like it done.

But this thread is about those who "don't get" what many others seem to have no difficulty appreciating.

 :)
I agree with you, but even in the case of P. Jarvi's Beethoven, Dausgaard did it first (and in the case of 2 & 3, better, but Dausgaard's Pastorale is pretty chilly).

Offline Pat B

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2013, 10:47:23 AM »
While we're piling on the Järvi's, I watched some of Paavo's Beethoven on youtube and I found his conducting style really off-putting. It seemed like a smug and contrived attempt to appear spontaneous. The performance seemed good, and maybe I would enjoy it in audio-only form, but now I don't know if I can get over that mental image of him.

Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2013, 10:58:29 AM »
I agree with you, but even in the case of P. Jarvi's Beethoven, Dausgaard did it first (and in the case of 2 & 3, better, but Dausgaard's Pastorale is pretty chilly).

And Antonini does the whole HIP-influenced-on-modern-instruments-with-reduced-forces thing a million times better, with more spontaneity, less mechanical and more character.

I've seen Paavo a few times live with a number of different bands (e.g. HRSO/CSO) and none of those occasions were terribly exceptional. I don't mind his conducting style. It's the uninteresting interpretation that bothers me.

Offline Superhorn

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2013, 08:14:04 AM »
   Brian, I could not disagree with you more bout Neeme Jarvi's performnces . I haven't heard  lot of Paavo's , but what little I've heard has been excellent . 
    The elder Jarvi has made outstnding recordings of such a wide variety of repertoire with so many different orchestras .
I've never heard  performnce of his which was not full of personality . He's simply unbeatble in Scandinavian music , without meaning to dismiss other outstanding conductors of this repertoire such as  Blomstedt, Berglund , Segerstam and Salonen etc.
And Jarvi hs given classical CD collectors a chance ot hear so much interesting off-beat repertoire which  you would have almost no chance of ever hearing live .

Offline Daverz

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2013, 10:12:45 AM »
How about composers instead of recordings?  I submit Ravel and Debussy.  I tried for almost a decade to "get" them.  At last I've given up on them and written them of, and I feel SOOOOOO much better now.

I don't get it.  There isn't anything to "get".

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2013, 10:18:18 AM »
I don't get it.  There isn't anything to "get".

He doesn't get what the big whoop is.  :)

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2013, 10:33:33 AM »
Moins de whoop
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2013, 10:57:40 AM »
He doesn't get what the big whoop is.  :)

I thought he didn't get 'WHY' the big whoop is.  ???

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