Author Topic: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"  (Read 22490 times)

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Beorn

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2013, 11:13:23 AM »
I thought he didn't get 'WHY' the big whoop is.  ???

Yes, [for] what [reason] is the big whoop?

Offline Mandryka

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2013, 11:59:20 AM »
Yes, [for] what [reason] is the big whoop?

Debussy was very good at expressing visual things with sounds
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 12:02:10 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2013, 01:07:50 PM »
Debussy was very good at expressing visual things with sounds

Hmmm.... never thought of it that way. Debussy was more expressing the intangibles of an atmosphere of a time and a place, but not just the visual. See, e.g., Les Sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir - the title itself is completely non-visual, yet entirely sensual. If I think of a composer who manages to turn the visual into music almost photographically, I think of Richard Strauss (especially Alpensinfonie).

Offline not edward

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2013, 04:50:42 AM »
To be a little provocative:

Bernstein's BPO Mahler 9. Superficial and histrionic.

Gardiner's Missa solemnis. All the notes are there, and very well played too, but where's the music?

Let me add the name of Marc-Andre Hamelin in here (I do like some of his recordings, but the praise for him seems to me hysterically overstated at times).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 05:06:01 AM by edward »
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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2013, 04:58:24 AM »
Gardiner's Missa solemnis. All the notes are there, and very well played too, but where's the music?

I don't have many CD purchase regrets but...Gardiner's Missa Solemnis is one of them.

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Offline MishaK

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2013, 05:56:19 AM »
Bernstein's BPO Mahler 9. Superficial and histrionic.

I'm not that bothered with his 9, but I don't get why people like his VPO M5 so much. It's a total and complete miss for me.

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2013, 08:33:26 AM »
I'm not that bothered with his 9, but I don't get why people like his VPO M5 so much. It's a total and complete miss for me.

It's been ages since I heard it, but that was my reaction too.
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kishnevi

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2013, 05:47:23 PM »
To be a little provocative:

Bernstein's BPO Mahler 9. Superficial and histrionic.

Gardiner's Missa solemnis. All the notes are there, and very well played too, but where's the music?

Let me add the name of Marc-Andre Hamelin in here (I do like some of his recordings, but the praise for him seems to me hysterically overstated at times).

But it's the sheer histrionic quality of that M9 that makes it so great--although I don't really think it is a superficial reading.  The M5 from that cycle comes close, but doesn't go over the line quite so much as the M9. 

For maximum histrionics in M9,  I'd suggest Levine's Munich Philharmonic (to be found on Oehms), which I love, but I suspect you wouldn't. 

I also disagree with you about Hamelin;  I don't think I've heard a single recording of his I don't like. 

But Gardiner's Missa Solemnis--I've played it, and five minutes after it was over,  I couldn't pick out a single thing to remark on, either negative or positive.   Missa Solemnis as Muzak?!

Offline Opus106

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2013, 09:32:35 PM »
But it's the sheer histrionic quality of that M9 that makes it so great--although I don't really think it is a superficial reading.  The M5 from that cycle comes close, but doesn't go over the line quite so much as the M9. 
[Emphasis mine]

Edward was referring to the Berlin 9th; it was a 'single', as it were, made during the Karajan era and it's not part of a cycle.
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Navneeth

kishnevi

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2013, 09:22:09 AM »
[Emphasis mine]

Edward was referring to the Berlin 9th; it was a 'single', as it were, made during the Karajan era and it's not part of a cycle.

Goes back to look.

Oh, yes.  Well, you know how a B and a V look like each other!  :-[

In that case,  I'm even more negative about the Berlin 9th than Edward is;  superficiality and histrionics don't even come into it:  too much noise from audience and other offstage sources (for instance, a door that insisted on banging shut several times) make it not worth listening to.

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2013, 10:06:14 AM »

In that case,  I'm even more negative about the Berlin 9th than Edward is;  superficiality and histrionics don't even come into it:  too much noise from audience and other offstage sources (for instance, a door that insisted on banging shut several times) make it not worth listening to.

It's also notorious for a mysterious error in the finale: at the climax, the trombones (all of them) fail to come in. How they all missed it in the first place, I don't know. But why they didn't fix it in editing is even more puzzling.
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Offline Pat B

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2013, 12:08:18 PM »
Who will defend Gardiner's Missa Solemnis? Not me. I sold my copy years ago after I got Herreweghe '95.

Offline Brian

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2013, 10:00:03 AM »
I still don't "get" Carlo Maria Giulini.

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2013, 10:41:33 AM »
I still don't "get" Carlo Maria Giulini.
I've always been a fan of his Rossini overtures. Of course, his opera is quite good too - you could try his Don Giovanni if you ever have the interest.
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Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2013, 04:24:30 PM »
I still don't "get" Carlo Maria Giulini.

Maybe you just don't like slow tempi exposing a wealth of detail. (As far as I can tell, that's what there is to "get").
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #95 on: September 05, 2013, 05:49:28 PM »
I still don't "get" Carlo Maria Giulini.

His Bruckner 9th recording with the VPO is one of my all-time favorite recordings. It doesn't get more glorious than this!
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #96 on: September 05, 2013, 08:01:07 PM »
I still don't "get" Carlo Maria Giulini.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I enjoy Giulini's Brahms German Requiem very much, and what I've heard of his Bruckner 9th makes me believe it could be a first choice (alongside Kubelik's, which I already have).

But beyond that his tendency towards slowness is a put-off for me. And it's not like he hasn't been on my radar...he's been a presence for 25 years!

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2017, 10:54:36 AM »
Oh, this is a fun thread that deserves resuscitation.

I agree with several mentions; Todd's of the Goode LvB Sonatas, which were terribly hyped in their day (but I suppose are no longer)... and the Furtwängler LvB9 (or Eff-it: anything by Furtwängler, if we're honest and/or insensitive)... The M9 with Lenny in Berlin is certainly overrated because it was rare and special for having been possible... but then, isn't a lot of Bernstein overrated? Important/exciting then... but wouldn't be that special if the same performance was conducted by, say, Juraj Valcuha. Most anything Perlman. Emerson String Quartet in anything pre-20th century.

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2017, 10:21:49 AM »
I agree with several mentions; Todd's of the Goode LvB Sonatas, which were terribly hyped in their day (but I suppose are no longer)...

"Terribly hyped" is the sort of thing I typically associate with the likes of Solti's Ring®, or Furtwängler's Bayreuth 9th®, or Mravinsky's DG Tchaikovsky®, or Heifetz's®®® anything.

I find it hard to believe a tiny American label recording a practically unknown American pianist - even in high-profile music like Beethoven's piano sonatas - could generate anything like "terrible hype". Add to that I've been listening to classical music for over 30 years and my reaction to this "terrible hype" tag is..."what hype?"

When I bought my first two-disc set of Goode's Beethoven sonatas (the last sonatas) 25 years ago I hadn't heard word one about the man. In fact, I didn't even know he existed until that purchase.

Fast forward 25 years and as I look BACK I see good things written about him here and there in the classical press, but nothing on the hyperbolic level of a whole host of other (undeserving) musicians. He's about as freaking under the radar as a musician can get! :D

The 1999 Gramophone Good CD Guide gives his set a "Three G" rating, which is tops. The review opens with this line, verbatim: "Until the last few years Richard Goode was active principally as an ensemble player, in chamber music, a field in which he excels". That's a strangely understated way to open a "terribly hyped" review.

The 2003/2004 edition of the Penguin Guide gives his a set a "Key" designation, as in, it could be looked upon as a key part of a collection. The ensuing review is again full of understated praise, using descriptors such as "wit and parody", "beauty", and "natural gravity".

Contrast that with the review immediately following Goode's, which, when describing Mr. Hyped himself Kempff's® mono Beethoven set, descriptors such as "magical spontaneity", "visionary concentration", and "a magical (again with the "magical"??) series" are free flowing. Hype Central®.

So, I dunno, as far as "terrible hype", I just don't see it with Goode.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 05:39:47 PM by Dancing Divertimentian »
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline amw

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Re: "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2017, 12:43:46 PM »
Who will defend Gardiner's Missa Solemnis? Not me. I sold my copy years ago after I got Herreweghe '95.
The 90s studio recording did very little for me, but the 00s live recording is not only an order of magnitude better but my favourite recording of the Missa Solemnis full stop. (The only one I can think of that comes close, at the moment, is Jochum.)

I know more than a few people with the exact opposite reaction though.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 12:45:47 PM by amw »