Chant

Started by Mandryka, October 11, 2013, 07:14:51 AM

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Mandryka

#260
Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2019, 03:59:26 AM
I just want to put here some preliminary reactions to interpretations 9th century music which I've started to explore a bit more, manuscripts in Switzerland, St Gallen, some of which is attributable to a named poet, Notker (the stammerer -- Balbulus.) I can find three recordings with substantial amounts of the music viz: Joppich, Morent and Vellard

        

The thing I want to point out is that prima facie both Morent and Vellard are fast and inexpressive, while Joppich takes his time to let the musical gestures be felt. It sometimes feels to me as though Morent's and Vellard's singers are going on about a shopping list while Joppich's are declaiming poetry.

I'm a bit cautious here, I don't think I am but I could be doing Morent and Vellard an injustice. And maybe, just maybe, Joppich is gilding an already beautiful lily and hence spoiling it. I'd be surprised to find either of these things were true, but I'm certainly open to the possibility.

So this makes me wonder how their tempos were determined. And how the details of their expression, of note formation etc -- the vocality and sonority of their singing--  were determined. The booklets to Morent and Vellard are full of paleographic stuff, but they are disappointingly silent about their performance decisions, I don't have the booklet to Joppich (can someone upload it for me?)

This post was totally unfair to Vellard!  Shame on me.

You have to have soft ears, to paraphrase an idea from The Wire.

https://www.youtube.com/v/tmZUI1LTYZQ
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

QuoteEnfin une réponse fondée sur des preuves scientifiques selon la sémiologie de Dom
Cardine à des courants de pensée qui font étalage de théories sans jamais parvenir
à des conclusions prouvées et irréfutables.
Un nouveau livre de chant grégorien était-il vraiment nécessaire ? Était-il opportun d'intervenir pour
modifier des mélodies millénaires, présentes depuis des siècles dans la tradition chantée vivante ? En
des temps où l'Occident a abandonné progressivement la langue latine, une proposition de
restauration ne semble-t-elle pas anachronique ?
Face à ces interrogations, et à d'autres, l'auteur explore l'histoire de la genèse du travail
monumental qui, en trente ans de recherche et d'étude approfondies au nom de la sémiologie
grégorienne, a conduit à la publication des deux volumes du Graduale Novum et, sur des bases
scientifiques, il offre les réponses aux maintes questions qui se sont soulevées, parmi les chercheurs
et en dehors de la communauté scientifique, à l'apparition de cet ouvrage, destiné à changer le cours
de l'histoire du chant grégorien.
Johannes Berchmans Göschl décrit chaque pas de ce travail, avec sérénité et précision,
documentant et justifiant chacun des choix effectués selon les manuscrits les plus anciens, à partir de
l'impulsion initiale donnée par le Concile Vatican II qui, dans la Constitution « Sacrosanctum
Concilium », percevait la nécessité impérieuse d'une nouvelle approche vis-à-vis du patrimoine de
chant inestimable de l'Église de Rome, et décrétait l'achèvement des éditions de référence et la
réalisation d'une édition plus critique des livres en usage alors.
Rien d'envergure n'avait encore été entrepris, sinon de faibles et timides tentatives qui n'ont
rencontré ni le succès ni l'intérêt escomptés. Les compétences et la constance remarquables d'un
groupe de spécialistes au sein de l'AISCGre (Associazione internazionale Studi di canto gregoriano)
ont permis au contraire de concrétiser avec le Graduale Novum ce qui n'était resté jusque là qu'un
augure. Désormais, le chant de la liturgie romaine est plus proche que jamais de ses origines.
Johannes Berchmans Göschl, Graduale Novum. Commentaire, Isotta Conti, 2019.
15 x 21 cm
160 p
50 exemples musicaux
Reliure brochée avec dos carré, cousu, collé
Couverture cartonnée de 280 g avec rabats de 10 cm
ISBN 978-2-902305-00-1
PVP : 25 € TTC + frais d'expédition
Souscription jusqu'au 31 janvier 2020 au prix de 20 € + frais d'expédition
Paiement anticipé par chèque pour la France ou par virement bancaire aux coordonnées suivantes respectivement :
• Isotta Conti Éditions
16, boulevard Saint-Germain
75005 Paris
• Isotta Conti Éditions
Société Générale
IBAN FR76 3000 3030 1000 0202 0051 967
BIC SOGEFRPP
Motif: Souscription Graduale Novum Commentaire
Le livre sera envoyé à l'adresse postale indiquée par chacun à partir du 1er février 2020.


I just can't be bothered translate, basically it's a new book, scientific, gregorian. If you're interested and google translate isn't good enough, let me know.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#262


The concept here is an informed presentation of a wide range of ancient European religious music styles, mostly for use in church rituals  - from, for example, Rome, Milan, St Gall. You'd expect the result to be diverse, but in fact I'm impressed by the coherence of all the music. Yes, there are different styles of singing here, but the way they're juxtaposed just works as a CD. As such, I think the recording is a valuable glimpse into c9 European religious music making, and it reveals how vibrant the scene was. More that that, it's a great thing to hear, not least because of Sequentia's experience of making sense of sequences and through composed material, these guys have been doing it for years and they've learned how to use voice colour and how to attack the words and how to overlay the voices to make the music expressive, sometimes dramatic sometimes prayerful.


At the end of the CD there are some amazing things. For example lament based on A solis ortus cardine presented with male voices and harp, textures and colours constantly changing, fluid articulation,  it's a very Sequentia sound. Do they sentimentalise, romanticise? They claim to be informed by what little evidence there is about how this stuff was sung back in the day, without " neglecting [t]heir own intuition"
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Carlo Gesualdo

Merci monsieur Mandryka sa ma l'aiir bien , j'y jetterais un coup d'oeil.

Mandryka



I didn't know about this until today . . .really impressive, impeccable, fluid, beautiful singing as far as I can hear, atmospherically recorded, well worh a listen. Performance inspired by C16 manuscripts of a Christmas mass.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Carlo Gesualdo

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 10:57:20 AM


I didn't know about this until today . . .really impressive, impeccable, fluid, beautiful singing as far as I can hear, atmospherically recorded, well worh a listen. Performance inspired by C16 manuscripts of a Christmas mass.
.Dear Mandryka, I this wonderful album , Tallis Scholars outdone themselves here, Love Sarum Chant, About Chant music from Europe, have you heard of Croatian-Dalmatian Chants album called Dalmatica Chant of Adriatic
Dialogos Katarina Livjanic, Kanduri -Josko Calleta on (outhere  division arcana, you might like it, I find a strange similitude on Corsican Chants, but perhaps it's me.

Mandryka

Quote from: deprofundis on February 25, 2020, 03:08:13 PM
.Dear Mandryka, I this wonderful album , Tallis Scholars outdone themselves here, Love Sarum Chant, About Chant music from Europe, have you heard of Croatian-Dalmatian Chants album called Dalmatica Chant of Adriatic
Dialogos Katarina Livjanic, Kanduri -Josko Calleta on (outhere  division arcana, you might like it, I find a strange similitude on Corsican Chants, but perhaps it's me.

These recordings by Dialogos are very nice to hear. My problem is that there's so much chant, so many different flavours,  different times and different regions, it's hard for me to get my head round it all. I listen to something by Livjanic for example, register that it sounds good, and then forget - I don't have the conceptual apparatus to subsume it.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

aligreto

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 10:57:20 AM


I didn't know about this until today . . .really impressive, impeccable, fluid, beautiful singing as far as I can hear, atmospherically recorded, well worh a listen. Performance inspired by C16 manuscripts of a Christmas mass.

I used to play that CD every Christmas Day for a number of years but I have not listened to it in some time. A really good one for those who have not yet heard it.

Mandryka

#268
Quote from: Mandryka on February 20, 2020, 01:53:00 PM


https://sklep.dalmafon.pl/Jerycho-Marcel-Peres-966

It's fabulous. The music evokes oxymorons - strength and sweetness; energy and intimacy. The sound quality is state of the art.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

vers la flamme

You know, I've just realized that I don't have any Gregorian chant in my library.

What would be a good place to start? One or two discs, please, I don't want to overwhelm myself.

Mandryka

If you can read French them buy this book, which comes with a CD and will get you started.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Que

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 10, 2020, 03:49:34 AM
You know, I've just realized that I don't have any Gregorian chant in my library.

What would be a good place to start? One or two discs, please, I don't want to overwhelm myself.


I don't have much Gregorian Chant , but I found this recording very satisfying:



Q


Mandryka

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Old San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on July 23, 2020, 03:56:17 AM
Useful looking online discography here

http://chantdiscography.com/index.php?home

I think that chant discography was created by Jerome F. Weber.

Mandryka

#274


They may be OK at singing monophonic music like some church chant,  but to me they sound chaotic when singing music with different simultaneous melodies - it may be the reverb, but honestly - they decided to recorded it with so much reverb! And their singers - especially the woman (or is it a female impersonator) - sound amateur to me. An interesting concept CD but badly executed IMO. What a disappointment.

That being said the Dunstable is priceless, I remember commenting on it before - it would be interesting to know what thinking led them to sing it like this. It's just weird - and I'm not sure if it's good weird! The Johannes Nucius (who he?) is strange too - with a womanny voice  singing like Mary Poppins. Yuck, bad bad baddy bad.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Old San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on May 13, 2021, 09:49:46 AM


They may be OK at singing monophonic music like some church chant,  but to me they sound chaotic when singing music with different simultaneous melodies - it may be the reverb, but honestly - they decided to recorded it with so much reverb! And their singers - especially the woman (or is it a female impersonator) - sound amateur to me. An interesting concept CD but badly executed IMO. What a disappointment.

That being said the Dunstable is priceless, I remember commenting on it before - it would be interesting to know what thinking led them to sing it like this. It's just weird - and I'm not sure if it's good weird! The Johannes Nucius (who he?) is strange too - with a womanny voice  singing like Mary Poppins. Yuck, bad bad baddy bad.

It was recorded October 1992 at The Abbey Church, Pontigny, Yonne.   I have been a fan of Mary Berry and this schola for a long time and can't agree with your assessment.

Here's some info about the recording and music:

QuoteThe Abbey of Pontigny, second daughter-house of Cîteaux, was founded in 1114 in the valley of the River Serin, a typical rural Cistercian site. The Abbey church is the largest Cistercian church surviving in France today.

The imposing height and length of the building give it a remarkably warm and resonant acoustic, well suited to chant. The brilliance of the white stone enables the purity and simplicity of the early Cistercian architecture to be revealed in all its beauty.

The Abbey is rich in history. In particular, during the 12th and 13th centuries three English Archbishops of Canterbury sought refuge there: Thomas Becket (1118-1170), Stephen Langton (d.1228), and Edmund of Abingdon (c.1175-1240), who became patron saint of Pontigny.

Pentecost has a special meaning for the people of Pontigny because it was on a Whit Monday that Edmund of Abingdon, – St Edme in French – was transported from Soissy, where he died, to his final resting-place above the high altar in the Abbey church.

This recording enters into the spirit of ‘Pentecôte at Pontigny’: ritual music for the feast of Pentecost, chants gleaned from Cistercian service-books, and a selection of pieces that honour the three Archbishops.

I could be wrong but I think this schola is a male group.

Mandryka

#276
Note this is The Women Cantors and Choir . . . I haven't heard it properly. Will try to do so soon.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#277
Quote from: Old San Antone on May 13, 2021, 03:18:12 PM


I could be wrong but I think this schola is a male group.

Here's a pic showing the strong presence of ladies.



(Unfortunately the recording doesn't seem to have been transferred. )
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Re Schola Gregoriana Cambridge I was amused by this obituary -- especially the bath (because when it says "called her colleague" it leaves me wondering whether said colleague was in the house or whether it was a phone call!)  and the dog.

http://www.scholagregoriana.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/spring2017news.pdf



QuoteIN MEMORIAM

Rosemary McCabe, R.I.P. Died 5th January, 2015

The Schola is indebted to Rosemary for its foundation. In 1975 while lying in
her bath reading the magazine "Early Music", Rosemary was struck by the
omission of any chant or reference to it. Leaping from her bath, she called her
colleague Mary Berry, and begged her to do something immediately to save the
chant declining into total oblivion. Thus was born the Schola Gregoriana of
Cambridge, run by a triumvirate consisting of Mary Berry as Director,
Rosemary as Secretary, and Margaret Aitken as Treasurer.

It was Rosemary who organised gatherings of Associates, retreats, concerts,
liturgical dramas, pilgrimages and recordings. Her attention to practical details
ensured all events ran without hitch. Her 'down to earth' attitude complemented
Mary's flow of plans, though occasionally she had to say 'no, quite impossible'
to some of Mary's wilder ideas. Working for Mary was virtually a full time job
dealing with volumes of correspondence and telephone calls, preparing music
for instruction days, gathering material for lectures and writing reports. Her
previous work as a professor of mediaeval history until her retirement was light
in comparison to her work with the Schola.

Rosemary had a good sense of levity. During a week's retreat at Glastonbury,
whilst Mary was lecturing Associates on the finer points of Gregorian
semiology, she suddenly asked Rosemary why she was looking out of the
window. Rosemary said her concentration had been diverted by a green
woodpecker feeding her young. Mary: "Do show us, Rosemary", and the class
immediately relaxed.

Rosemary's constant companion was her elderly terrier, Spy. Spy always lay
dormant at divine offices, but when the words 'Benedicamus Domino' were
sung, he would rouse and quit the chapel with unusual agility. He knew
Rosemary would have prepared an excellent supper for him in the kitchen.
The amazing output of the Schola during its earlier years would not have been
possible without Rosemary's outstanding contribution.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

I think (Choral-)Schola's originally were male groups exclusively, and that women haven't participated until quite recently. This quote from WIKI seems to confirm that:

A Choralschola, known simply as schola, is a choir for singing Gregorian chant or plainsong. It consists traditionally of only men, but more recent groups sometimes also include female voices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choralschola

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