Need opinions: John Cage's 4:33

[Karl Henning]

After all the hubbub about Cage Against The Machine in Great Britain, Reinbert de Leeuw performed Cage's 4'33 in a popular talkshow on the Dutch telly, december 2010.

[Performance begins at 6:40. Before that De Leeuw talks (in Dutch) about Cage's fascination for silence and detachment (and about his admiration for Satie).]

http://www.youtube.com/v/7KXaylNMJMs

Thanks for that, Marc.  My immediate reflex was the thought that I would not watch the video . . . but then I thought, Why not? and so I did.

I found (quite possibly to my surprise) that it was time well spent.  As with just any other piece of music, it all depends on what you do with the time, and with your concentration.

The experience of (I smile almost just to type this) watching a video of a performance of 4'33 made me think of a story told me by a friend in upstate New York, of a Dutch architect teaching a class at the time when mechanical pencil sharpeners had just been installed at each of the desks in the classroom.  The architect got the students attention, saying, "Before we begin, let us sharpen our pencils."

All of the students used the sharpeners at their desks, turned the handle a few times, and in seconds all of them were done.

The architect sat down in front of the class, took his pencil, took out a knife, and without any apparent hurry, patiently whittled a sharp point.  All the students sat and watched this, who knows what thoughts and emotions ran through each student's breast.

At last, the architect spoke again, "Well, then.  Where are we now?  You all have sharp pencils, while I — I have designed an interior."

[Brahmsian]

Well, I for one, will be exploring John Cage's music.  Not Stockhausen's.

No one has ever twisted my arm to listen to Cage's music, and now I might be ready to explore it.  Plus, I really like Octave's avatar! 

On Stockhausen, his music is the least I am willing to explore (of all composers), and it is all because of James, and his incessant trying to cram Stockhausen continuously, day after day after day, down our throats.  It ain't working James, very few people want to explore his music, because of your shitty attitude, and your constant need to tear down Cage....for what?? 

[Parsifal]

Clearly this topic is an excuse to bring out all of the simmering bitterness and bile. 

What's the big deal?  I've always been curious if the audience is supposed to know that 4'33" is going to be "performed," or if they are supposed to think that the performing group is just fidgeting and fussing before they begin playing an actual piece.

Could it be that Cage was able to foresee the Internet and wrote the piece as troll bate?

[amw]

I thought AMW's response was reasonably constructive until this possibly dismissive (or merely pragmatic?) last line. 

I actually wasn't talking about 4'33" itself, but about a different piece that is however based on similar principles (for "solo listener" iirc). I generally agree with you, active and sympathetic listening (even if only to ambient sound) can make almost any subsequent experiences richer and more profound. I was at a performance of Cage's 103 in New York last year and was on a bit of a contact high for the rest of the evening. >_> (Very nearly wrote a rather silly review in which a phrase along the lines of "pulled back the surface of the universe to reveal the music beneath" would have figured prominently.) I imagine that giving the audience a score to "perform" would cause a good deal of eye-rolling and grumbles about the dreadful state of modern music and why can't any of these so-called composers write a tune? however.

A problem with 4'33" is that it's a known quantity, so audiences will already have formed preconceived notions about it. A less well-known piece (whether by Cage or someone else, whether silent, near-silent or nonsilent but employing similar time-container and evasion of structure principles) would be received more openmindedly and therefore, perhaps, successfully.

http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/some-recent-silences/

(For some reason my internet died just as I tried to post this the other night. Luckily, it seems I haven't missed anything  )

[jochanaan]

4'33" might be a deeply profound experience, exploring the articulated silence of a hall filled with people, some of whom happen to be singers and instrumentalists.  But it could be easily over-programmed.  Of course, its advantage is that you really don't need a concert hall, or even a recording--just a stopwatch or a good time sense, and "Instant Music"!

Yet although I have never heard 4'33" performed live, I love music that stretches most folks' definition of music, and this definitely does that!  Maybe I'll just sign off GMG and listen to it now.

[Marc]

Thanks for that, Marc.  My immediate reflex was the thought that I would not watch the video . . . but then I thought, Why not? and so I did.

I found (quite possibly to my surprise) that it was time well spent.  As with just any other piece of music, it all depends on what you do with the time, and with your concentration.

The experience of (I smile almost just to type this) watching a video of a performance of 4'33 made me think of a story told me by a friend in upstate New York, of a Dutch architect teaching a class at the time when mechanical pencil sharpeners had just been installed at each of the desks in the classroom.  The architect got the students attention, saying, "Before we begin, let us sharpen our pencils."

All of the students used the sharpeners at their desks, turned the handle a few times, and in seconds all of them were done.

The architect sat down in front of the class, took his pencil, took out a knife, and without any apparent hurry, patiently whittled a sharp point.  All the students sat and watched this, who knows what thoughts and emotions ran through each student's breast.

At last, the architect spoke again, "Well, then.  Where are we now?  You all have sharp pencils, while I — I have designed an interior."

A true craftsman.

My dad, also a teacher btw, learned us to sharpen our pencils with a knife.
When I left home to live by myself, it really took me some years to finally buy me a sharpener.

I must have made quite a few interiors during my younger years.

On topic, about Cage's composition: to me, it's kind of a lesson to appreciate and enjoy the silence. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Octave]

AMW, sorry, I think I was too jumpy when I said "possibly dismissive", and also shouldn't have used "merely" beside "pragmatic". 
I'm pretty sure I have the measure of your point now.   
And of course ambushing/browbeating audiences bears the peril of being Bad Pedantry.  "We know what they need!"  (Exceptions encouraged, e.g. Haydn etc etc.  Pranking or trolling?  You decide!)

My thanks too to Marc for that video.

[Karl Henning]

[...] I must have made quite a few interiors during my younger years.

Show me the construction!    

[Parsifal]

Thanks for that, Marc.  My immediate reflex was the thought that I would not watch the video . . . but then I thought, Why not? and so I did.

I found (quite possibly to my surprise) that it was time well spent.  As with just any other piece of music, it all depends on what you do with the time, and with your concentration.

The experience of (I smile almost just to type this) watching a video of a performance of 4'33 made me think of a story told me by a friend in upstate New York, of a Dutch architect teaching a class at the time when mechanical pencil sharpeners had just been installed at each of the desks in the classroom.  The architect got the students attention, saying, "Before we begin, let us sharpen our pencils."

All of the students used the sharpeners at their desks, turned the handle a few times, and in seconds all of them were done.

The architect sat down in front of the class, took his pencil, took out a knife, and without any apparent hurry, patiently whittled a sharp point.  All the students sat and watched this, who knows what thoughts and emotions ran through each student's breast.

At last, the architect spoke again, "Well, then.  Where are we now?  You all have sharp pencils, while I — I have designed an interior."

If he was more honest he probably would have said,

"Well, then.  Where are we now?  You all have sharp pencils, while I — I have made love to Marilyn Monroe on a deserted beach in Tahiti."

[bhodges]

If he was more honest he probably would have said,

"Well, then.  Where are we now?  You all have sharp pencils, while I — I have made love to Marilyn Monroe on a deserted beach in Tahiti."

I have heard 4'33" live a number of times: by a solo pianist, solo cellist, string quartet, and large chamber ensemble. Each time the sensation was acute: an audience listening to silence (or what they thought was silence) and paying keen attention. Inevitably you start to notice the tiniest sounds audible in the room: someone's chair squeaking, or the air-conditioning system, or coins shifting in a pants pocket.

And while I wouldn't want to hear it if I were in the mood for Wagner, listening to Cage's opus gets you thinking about all sorts of things. If nothing else, how many of us experience 5 minutes of silence in a day (sleep excepted)? But even if we all did, there's something about framing a few minutes - making a snapshot of them - that is silly, revolutionary, eye-rolling, profound.

--Bruce

[Karl Henning]

And the communal silence in a concert hall, Bruce; again, you can yammer about it, but if you haven't experienced it . . . .

[Karl Henning]

We get it, James: you don't like it, you don't get it. You don't get it, but, you want to enjoy the cachet of "I understand this, it's no big deal, because I know everything in music that is a big deal.

We get it, James: you don't care for Cage, but you feel that your opinions are of such over-arching importance, that it would not be enough not to participate in this thread; no, the world needs James's opinion that it's no big deal.  You poor, deluded Cage fans, if you would only open your eyes, you would obtain true enlightenment and fawn all over Stockhausen, just like me!  If you people were at all intelligent musically, you would all agree with me!  Threads like this would disappear!

[North Star]

I have heard 4'33" live a number of times: by a solo pianist, solo cellist, string quartet, and large chamber ensemble. Each time the sensation was acute: an audience listening to silence (or what they thought was silence) and paying keen attention. Inevitably you start to notice the tiniest sounds audible in the room: someone's chair squeaking, or the air-conditioning system, or coins shifting in a pants pocket.

And while I wouldn't want to hear it if I were in the mood for Wagner, listening to Cage's opus gets you thinking about all sorts of things. If nothing else, how many of us experience 5 minutes of silence in a day (sleep excepted)? But even if we all did, there's something about framing a few minutes - making a snapshot of them - that is silly, revolutionary, eye-rolling, profound.

--Bruce

Hear hear!
So, which ensemble did you like most in the piece?  0:)

[bhodges]

Hear hear!
So, which ensemble did you like most in the piece?  0:)

That's hard to say - truly! The chamber ensemble (c. 13-15 people) might have provided the most stimulation, just from the sheer number of people onstage, and watching them sit, smile, fidget, meditate, look down, shuffle their feet. But in the solo piano version (sorry, the name escapes me) the pianist sat on the bench, but also opened the lid and closed it (quietly), and inspected other parts of the instrument, adding elements of movement to the silence.

--Bruce

[North Star]

That's hard to say - truly! The chamber ensemble (c. 13-15 people) might have provided the most stimulation, just from the sheer number of people onstage, and watching them sit, smile, fidget, meditate, look down, shuffle their feet. But in the solo piano version (sorry, the name escapes me) the pianist sat on the bench, but also opened the lid and closed it (quietly), and inspected other parts of the instrument, adding elements of movement to the silence.

--Bruce

Yes, there truly are differences in the versions. I recall that the opening/closing of the lid is written in the score?

[bhodges]

Yes, there truly are differences in the versions. I recall that the opening/closing of the lid is written in the score?

I actually  have never seen the score, except the front page! Have to fix that...

--Bruce

[Parsifal]

I actually  have never seen the score, except the front page! Have to fix that...

--Bruce

I thought the score just says, fidget  for 4'33"

[bhodges]

I thought the score just says, fidget  for 4'33"

--Bruce

[jochanaan]

Does anyone have access to a facsimile of the score?

[PaulR]

Does anyone have access to a facsimile of the score?

I have seen the score a while ago, and I believe it just has three movements that just says "Tacet".  I could be wrong though.