Schoenberg's Sheen

[Lisztianwagner]

I shall have to revisit it as it's been some years, but I do remember finding much to appreciate in the work too. Thank you for reminding me it exists.

You're welcome, I think the Piano Concerto is definitely worth listening; I hope you'll enjoy it!

What recording do you have? I've got the Pollini/Abbado, Uchida/Boulez and Piemontesi/Nott; but my favourite still remains the Pollini.

[MusicTurner]

I've become quite fond of Schönberg's Piano Concerto, in my opinion it is an absolutely marvelous, thoughtful piece. I find it impressive for the dense, elaborate contrapuntal structure, which, despite its complexity, doesn't sound confusing, heavy or tangled, instead it never loses clarity and precision and shows great inventiness; besides, I've always been struck by the powerful emotions this work can evoke, despite the rigorous, logical texture of the melodic lines (but, to tell the truth, the twelve-tone scheme sometimes has a bit relaxed application, as for example, the basic row has pitches repetitions). I also like very much the beautiful phrasing between orchestra and piano, whose richness in expressiveness is very well used (incredible, thinking that Schönberg was not a pianist), and the trimbric variety depicting haunting, striking constrats, also through the use of irregular rhythms and changes in dynamics, that create a very mesmerizing atmosphere. Something quite surprising is that the piece has several lyrical passages too that sometimes makes it sounds almost tonal, like a Late Romantic work.
The first movement is quiet and nostalgic, and as a matter of fact, it has surprisingly soft harmonic tensions (at least, as soft as a dodecaphonic work could be), especially of the orchestra, while the piano, after the melodious beginning, continues in a more strident, fidgety way; instead particularly in the final part, the atmosphere becomes more dissonant and darker, almost as a prelude to the following movement, which on the contrary proceeds anxious, fiery and frenetic, growing in intensity and suddenly slowing down, with sharp, raw timbres. The Adagio alternates calm, but somber sections to others rough and restless, before ending, after a short climax, with a solo piano cadenza; it isn't as violent as the second movement, but it's tense and tragic anyway. Instead the fourth movement is very changeable and unpredictable, with sudden rhythmic variations and contrasting moods, nervous, lyrical, powerful and even ironic (few bars with solo flute and solo bassoon), though the gloom of the two previous movements can still be perceived.

Nice & inspiring post, thanks - will give it another listening now!

[vers la flamme]

You're welcome, I think the Piano Concerto is definitely worth listening; I hope you'll enjoy it!

What recording do you have? I've got the Pollini/Abbado, Uchida/Boulez and Piemontesi/Nott; but my favourite still remains the Pollini.

Ax/Salonen/Philharmonia. Would love to hear all those that you mentioned.

[Lisztianwagner]

Nice & inspiring post, thanks - will give it another listening now!

Glad to be helpful then!

Ax/Salonen/Philharmonia. Would love to hear all those that you mentioned.

Nice, instead I would love to hear the Ax/Salonen you mentioned, since I don't know that recording.

[Cato]

If you can find a physical copy at a library of The New York Review of Books, Alfred Brendel wrote a wonderful essay for the February 16, 1995 issue: On Playing Schoenberg's Piano Concerto.

Unfortunately, the online archive does not take you to this article, when you search for it.  Instead, you get a kind of diary with musings on e.g. Stockhausen, which is interesting, but it is the wrong essay!

I have written to them twice throughout the years to fix this mistake, but of course they are unconcerned about it.

[Lisztianwagner]

If you can find a physical copy at a library of The New York Review of Books, Alfred Brendel wrote a wonderful essay for the February 16, 1995 issue: On Playing Schoenberg's Piano Concerto.

Unfortunately, the online archive does not take you to this article, when you search for it.  Instead, you get a kind of diary with musings on e.g. Stockhausen, which is interesting, but it is the wrong essay!

I have written to them twice throughout the years to fix this mistake, but of course they are unconcerned about it.

Brendel made excellent interpretations of the Piano Concerto, it would have certainly been great to read his essay, what a pity it's not available online.

About pianists talking about the PC, on the Arnold Schönberg Center's youtube channel, there's a short, but very interesting video where Mitsuko Uchida talks about her experience with this particular Schönberg's work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmWRttCo7lo

[Cato]

Brendel made excellent interpretations of the Piano Concerto, it would have certainly been great to read his essay, what a pity it's not available online.

One of the comments Brendel made, which sticks particularly in my mind, was that Schoenberg's "mistakes" in the score gave him "a headache."

He did not specify, but I suspect he meant areas where strict "composition with 12 notes" was not followed.

Schoenberg seemed always to follow his ear, and if that did not follow the method, too bad for the method!   

[relm1]

One of the comments Brendel made, which sticks particularly in my mind, was that Schoenberg's "mistakes" in the score gave him "a headache."

He did not specify, but I suspect he meant areas where strict "composition with 12 notes" was not followed.

Schoenberg seemed always to follow his ear, and if that did not follow the method, too bad for the method!   

Based on the Uchida clip from Lisztianwagner, it's probably his poor writing for the instrument.  As she describes it: "It lies VERY badly at times and you really have to jump around from one side to the other or the hands are colliding with each other..."

[petrarch]

If you can find a physical copy at a library of The New York Review of Books, Alfred Brendel wrote a wonderful essay for the February 16, 1995 issue: On Playing Schoenberg's Piano Concerto.

Unfortunately, the online archive does not take you to this article, when you search for it.  Instead, you get a kind of diary with musings on e.g. Stockhausen, which is interesting, but it is the wrong essay!

I have written to them twice throughout the years to fix this mistake, but of course they are unconcerned about it.

That essay was later included in his Music, Sense and Nonsense. Here's a copy of the relevant section: https://we.tl/t-cwC0x8kv4U

[Karl Henning]

One of the comments Brendel made, which sticks particularly in my mind, was that Schoenberg's "mistakes" in the score gave him "a headache."

He did not specify, but I suspect he meant areas where strict "composition with 12 notes" was not followed.

Schoenberg seemed always to follow his ear, and if that did not follow the method, too bad for the method!   

The artistic decision, indeed, and the man was an artist 

[Lisztianwagner]

That essay was later included in his Music, Sense and Nonsense. Here's a copy of the relevant section: https://we.tl/t-cwC0x8kv4U

How great, thank you very much!

[Lisztianwagner]

One of the comments Brendel made, which sticks particularly in my mind, was that Schoenberg's "mistakes" in the score gave him "a headache."

He did not specify, but I suspect he meant areas where strict "composition with 12 notes" was not followed.

Schoenberg seemed always to follow his ear, and if that did not follow the method, too bad for the method!   

Schönberg himself said that, for him, brain and heart were equally important.

Yes, in the article Brendel says, about the not strictly application of the twelve-tone method, that it seems to him that, at some points, the clarity of Schönberg's head was clouded by the urgency of his heart; so it results in a less than exact use of the twelve tone rows because of the inner inspiration. This is the way he interprets Schönberg's words too: "Kunst kommt nicht von Können, sondern von Müssen" (art doesn't come from what you can do, but what you must do). A very intriguing point of view.

[vers la flamme]

I have to give props to Ilaria for reminding me of the existence of this excellent work 

[Lisztianwagner]

I have to give props to Ilaria for reminding me of the existence of this excellent work 

My pleasure, I'm very glad you enjoyed it so much.

[Cato]

That essay was later included in his Music, Sense and Nonsense.

Here's a copy of the relevant section: https://we.tl/t-cwC0x8kv4U

Excellent!  I was about to dive into the vast and nearly infinite Cato Archives    - which, to be sure, are not as intimidating as they used to be, because of my retirement from teaching, but... - to look for a photocopy which might have survived the recent purges.


Should we also mention the Violin Concerto now?  This has been an all-around "fave" of mine since I heard the Zvi Zeitlin/Kubelik recording 50-60 years ago.

By Louis Krasner, who played the concerto's premiere with Leopold Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra:

"It is a matter of historical record that almost all first performances of Schoenberg's music were carried out... in an atmosphere of belligerence, scandal, even sabotage... The first performance of the Concerto, auspiciously scheduled by the Philadelphia Orchestra under Leopold Stokowski, also had to endure its share of problems... Indeed, the event was marked by ongoing opposition and controversy between the orchestra's management and its Music Director. Efforts were exerted repeatedly to thwart the performance and to effect its cancellation. Stokowski's determination to perform the Concerto could not be shaken, however, and his persistence finally overcame all obstacles...

"The orchestra players were at first hesitant in their attitude and interest, but for the most part they worked seriously and attentively – prodded on perhaps by a handful of colleagues who were personally involved in composition and avant-garde music. Among these was Benar Heifetz, solo cellist of the orchestra and former member of the famous Kolisch Quartet, which had premiered most of Schoenberg's chamber music. On the evening following the first orchestra rehearsal, Mr. Heifetz invited the orchestra to his home for a preview performance of the Concerto. In his crowded music room, my wife Adrienne played the orchestra reduction on the piano and I played the solo part – demonstrating and explaining, engaging the musicians in extended discussions of the structure, musical content, and melodic outline of the work...

"The Schoenberg Concerto is a very complex work, magnificent in its scope – the ultimate, I would say, in design and conception of the solo part. The musical responsibilities it imposes on both fingerboard and bowing techniques carry the player to the very edge of instrumental brinksmanship...

"With Stokowski's masterful control... together with the growing interest of the orchestra musicians, rehearsals progressed very satisfactorily. At some point along the way Stokowski spoke to me of his difficulties with the management. He explained that because they had refused to budget a soloist's fee, he would personally pay my honorarium. This of course troubled me greatly and I... begged him to let me participate without remuneration...

"[At the final rehearsal] all went smoothly and upon leaving the stage, I sensed a mood of satisfaction among all the participants. When I returned to my hotel room... the clerk handed me an envelope. In it I found a check together with a note written over Stokowski's large-lettered signature. It read: 'This is your honorarium for our concerts. If you will not accept it, please do not come to this afternoon's performance.'

"Both concerts were performed as scheduled. Many musicians from distant areas attended, and the audience reaction was of course mixed...

"Nearly 34 years have passed and I am still convinced that the Schoenberg Violin Concerto is a monumental work of historic significance. I have now found several distinguished musicians who agree."

See:

https://www.hollywoodbowl.com/musicdb/pieces/4504/violin-concerto

Here is the Zeitlin/Kubelik performance with the score:

https://www.youtube.com/v/77tVvUAzwbw

[Karl Henning]

Excellent!  I was about to dive into the vast and nearly infinite Cato Archives    - which, to be sure, are not as intimidating as they used to be, because of my retirement from teaching, but... - to look for a photocopy which might have survived the recent purges.


Should we also mention the Violin Concerto now?  This has been an all-around "fave" of mine since I heard the Zvi Zeitlin/Kubelik recording 50-60 years ago.

By Louis Krasner, who played the concerto's premiere with Leopold Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra:


See:

https://www.hollywoodbowl.com/musicdb/pieces/4504/violin-concerto

Here is the Zeitlin/Kubelik performance with the score:

https://www.youtube.com/v/77tVvUAzwbw

Thanks for all this. (I do, incidentally, have a CD with the  Zvi Zeitlin/Kubelik recording.)

[Lisztianwagner]

Should we also mention the Violin Concerto now?  This has been an all-around "fave" of mine since I heard the Zvi Zeitlin/Kubelik recording 50-60 years ago.

By Louis Krasner, who played the concerto's premiere with Leopold Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra:


See:

https://www.hollywoodbowl.com/musicdb/pieces/4504/violin-concerto

Here is the Zeitlin/Kubelik performance with the score:

https://www.youtube.com/v/77tVvUAzwbw

That's very interesting, thanks!

I shall have to revisit the Violin Concerto, I haven't listened to it for a little time.

[Lisztianwagner]

About the Violin Concerto, I admire Schönberg's ambitious exploration of the timbres, whose rich variety and expressive search are certainly impressive; it shows great brilliance and mastery, and I love how the deep, hauntingly beautiful atmospheres grab the ear: the solo violin is able to be very intense and powerful in the impact of its thrilling phrasing, but also incredibly strident and raw; it passes from low, tense registers to very high ones, using glissandi, tremoli and vertiginous pizzicati, till the point of expressing an abstract sound, almost without timbral colour, in front of which there are the mutable sonorities of the orchestra, at times expanded in a vibrant, striking way, at times rarefied, but extremely changing.

Am I wrong, or like the Piano Concerto, the Violin Concerto is not always strictly rigorous of the dodecaphonic method?

[Cato]

Am I wrong, or like the Piano Concerto, the Violin Concerto is not always strictly rigorous of the dodecaphonic method?

Check the score and you will find all kinds of non-compliance!  e.g Bar 23, Bars 61 ff. in the Clarinet and Violas, two notes are repeated back and forth (Ab-Eb, F-B, E-C#).

Free atonality or quasi-dodecaphonic?  As I wrote earlier, Schoenberg followed his ear, so if the method had to be "loosened," so be it!   

[Lisztianwagner]

Check the score and you will find all kinds of non-compliance!  e.g Bar 23, Bars 61 ff. in the Clarinet and Violas, two notes are repeated back and forth (Ab-Eb, F-B, E-C#).

Free atonality or quasi-dodecaphonic?  As I wrote earlier, Schoenberg followed his ear, so if the method had to be "loosened," so be it!

I see, thanks! I agree anyway, as much as he was logical and precise, Schönberg remained an artist, not a mere mathematician, so he couldn't be indifferent to what he was suggested by the inner inspiration. Whether the loosening was due to an urgency of the heart (to say it in Brendel's way) or the fact dodecaphony could be subject to developments too, I find marvelous that, even when he used the twelve-tone technique more freely, he experimented new, different approaches to tonality nonetheless, without simply returning to it.

There are also Schönberg's own words: "A longing to return to the older style was always vigorous in me, and from time to time I had to yield to that urge".