Author Topic: Schoenberg's Sheen  (Read 127797 times)

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Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #860 on: September 10, 2022, 10:55:36 AM »
Maybe someone more educated than I am can elucidate me. What's the difference between what Schoenberg is doing here (ie. occasional deviations from the strict order of the tone row) and a composer like Wagner or Chopin or Mozart venturing outside of the diatonic scale (ie. chromaticism)?

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #861 on: September 10, 2022, 11:04:52 AM »
Maybe someone more educated than I am can elucidate me. What's the difference between what Schoenberg is doing here (ie. occasional deviations from the strict order of the tone row) and a composer like Wagner or Chopin or Mozart venturing outside of the diatonic scale (ie. chromaticism)?

I'm not sure there is. I suspect most composers who use systematic methods do it. Stockhausen did it. Boulez did it. Xenakis did it. And common practice tonality is a system like various forms of serialism, so yes you may be right.

 John Cage is a counterexample, though obviously the striking difference is that so many of his scores used time brackets and other notations which gave the performers huge amounts of discretion. James Tenney may have been the strictest of them all.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 11:10:04 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline hvbias

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #862 on: September 11, 2022, 03:38:15 AM »
That essay was later included in his Music, Sense and Nonsense. Here's a copy of the relevant section: https://we.tl/t-cwC0x8kv4U

Huge thank you petrarch, I am looking forward to reading this.

About the Violin Concerto, I admire Schönberg's ambitious exploration of the timbres, whose rich variety and expressive search are certainly impressive; it shows great brilliance and mastery, and I love how the deep, hauntingly beautiful atmospheres grab the ear: the solo violin is able to be very intense and powerful in the impact of its thrilling phrasing, but also incredibly strident and raw; it passes from low, tense registers to very high ones, using glissandi, tremoli and vertiginous pizzicati, till the point of expressing an abstract sound, almost without timbral colour, in front of which there are the mutable sonorities of the orchestra, at times expanded in a vibrant, striking way, at times rarefied, but extremely changing.

Am I wrong, or like the Piano Concerto, the Violin Concerto is not always strictly rigorous of the dodecaphonic method?

Here is Hilary Hahn on the Violin Concerto, with Schoenberg's grandson who is a splitting image of him! https://youtu.be/gjW4aDQa0Vg

I love this work and all its variety of moods and sounds. I listen to it more than several of the most famous violin concerti where the violin writing can not uncommonly come off as too syrupy.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 04:00:33 AM by hvbias »
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #863 on: September 11, 2022, 04:06:38 AM »
He looks much more friendly (maybe because of the rounder face compared with Arnold's stern and gaunt features) but remarkably similar to Arnold, yes. And Hahn looks incredibly young in that video, she was around 29 and looks like a teenager.

I admittedly never really listened to the violin concerto; the only recording I have is Zeitlin/Kubelik but I doubt that I heard it more than twice.
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Offline Lisztianwagner

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #864 on: September 16, 2022, 03:53:23 AM »
Here is Hilary Hahn on the Violin Concerto, with Schoenberg's grandson who is a splitting image of him! https://youtu.be/gjW4aDQa0Vg

I love this work and all its variety of moods and sounds. I listen to it more than several of the most famous violin concerti where the violin writing can not uncommonly come off as too syrupy.

Very nice video! That's true, the resemblance is striking!

I can share the feeling about Schönberg's Violin Concerto, I've listened to it more than other very famous violin concerti too (but I tend to prefer piano to violin) and I love it; that work is full of contrasts and tensions, it may sound harsh, but it's absolutely mesmerizing.
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Offline hvbias

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #865 on: September 16, 2022, 10:06:32 AM »
Very nice video! That's true, the resemblance is striking!

I can share the feeling about Schönberg's Violin Concerto, I've listened to it more than other very famous violin concerti too (but I tend to prefer piano to violin) and I love it; that work is full of contrasts and tensions, it may sound harsh, but it's absolutely mesmerizing.

I'm going to listen to Piemontesi's recording of the Piano Concerto, thanks for reminding me about that. Then hear Brendel/Gielen for the first time, the recording I have of Brendel is with Kubelik.
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline Lisztianwagner

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #866 on: September 17, 2022, 01:56:54 AM »
I'm going to listen to Piemontesi's recording of the Piano Concerto, thanks for reminding me about that. Then hear Brendel/Gielen for the first time, the recording I have of Brendel is with Kubelik.

Great choice, Piemontesi's recording is superb and so is the Brendel/Kubelik; though my favourite version of the Piano Concerto remains the Pollini/Abbado. Pollini is a marvelous interpreter also for Schönberg's solo piano music.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Offline hvbias

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #867 on: September 22, 2022, 01:40:19 PM »
Great choice, Piemontesi's recording is superb and so is the Brendel/Kubelik; though my favourite version of the Piano Concerto remains the Pollini/Abbado. Pollini is a marvelous interpreter also for Schönberg's solo piano music.

Piemontesi's is a superb performance, but I will probably skip buying it as I'm not too fond of Ravel's Piano Concerto. Pollini and Uchida are my favorite performances for Schoenberg's Piano Concerto. Through box sets I have managed to acquire both Peter Serkin, Gould, and Ax as well.
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong