Schoenberg's Sheen

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 07:35:28 AM

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Mahlerian

Quote from: SharpEleventh on November 25, 2016, 03:23:11 PM
What do GMGers think of Five Piano Pieces Op. 23?

No. 3 is my favorite of them.  I love the way the theme is broken up and splintered across the registers of the piano, and also those remarkable chords circling around a fifth axis at the end.

No. 5 has its historical value, and it's charming enough.

I prefer the Suite, personally, or the earlier piano pieces, but the set is intriguing overall.  It's one of the last Schoenberg works I finally "got."
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Mandryka

#441
If you can hear Lubimov's op 23, it's worth catching I think.


As far as romantic goes, in some performances (Rittner for example) the chromaticism of the first one has made me think of Scriabin, but not in Lubimov's hands. The 5th is a Waltz -- why do you say it's historically important, Mahlerian?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mahlerian

Quote from: Mandryka on November 26, 2016, 12:51:51 AM
If you can hear Lubimov's op 23, it's worth catching I think.


As far as romantic goes, in some performances (Rittner for example) the chromaticism of the first one has made me think of Scriabin, but not in Lubimov's hands. The 5th is a Waltz -- why do you say it's historically important, Mahlerian?

It's the first piece fully based on a 12-tone row.  The other pieces of Op. 23, like most of Op. 24, use a kind of serial technique on other kinds of rows, mixed with some freely composed passages in the case of 24.  Op. 25 is the first full work based on a single 12-tone row.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Mandryka

#443
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 26, 2016, 05:11:05 AM
It's the first piece fully based on a 12-tone row.  The other pieces of Op. 23, like most of Op. 24, use a kind of serial technique on other kinds of rows, mixed with some freely composed passages in the case of 24.  Op. 25 is the first full work based on a single 12-tone row.

Thanks for that, it could be useful for a quiz.

Anyway I listened to something interesting today, a recording of Op 23 by Steuermann billed as "1951 Dial Masters" - very good, very fresh and urgent and spontaneous and passionate and emotionally intense, and that "expressionist" approach seems really to work well with the music. This thing



It made me think of much later pieces like the trio, just because of the intensity and rapid changes in expressed emotion that Steuermann gets out of the music in op 23.

Did Schoenberg say anything about what Steuermann did?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

James

Gould's Schoenberg is a must, he loved Arnie and it really shows. Maximum musicality, feel and clarity as always. His Berg and Webern are also great.

Pollini's DG recording is a cooler more distant view but very nice. Technically brilliant. Love his Berg & Webern also.

Messiaen specialist Peter Hill also did a fine recording for Naxos of the complete 2nd Viennese School piano solos.
Action is the only truth

James

Action is the only truth

Mahlerian

Quote from: Mandryka on November 26, 2016, 12:51:33 PMDid Schoenberg say anything about what Steuermann did?

I can't recall any specific comment, but I believe Steuermann was a student of his?  There are examples of him praising specific performances, such as the Kolisch Quartet's recordings of his string quartets or the Hollywood Quartet's Verklarte Nacht.

He was at any rate one of the early champions of Schoenberg's music, and he tended to be appreciative of performers of his work, so long as they imparted sufficient expression into the music.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

James

Boulez more than any other conductor I can think of really brought a tremendous amount of understanding and clarity to the 2nd Viennese School's complex orchestral works. He put that stuff on the map and really led the way. Before him it was quite a muddled affair.
Action is the only truth

Mandryka

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Mahlerian on November 26, 2016, 08:22:16 PM

He was at any rate one of the early champions of Schoenberg's music, and he tended to be appreciative of performers of his work, so long as they imparted sufficient expression into the music.

Thank you.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#450
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 26, 2016, 08:22:16 PM
I can't recall any specific comment, but I believe Steuermann was a student of his? 

According to Malcolm MacDonald, Steuermann was one of Schoenberg's pupils and had come recommended by Busoni, which is interesting. The fact that he premiered so much of Schoenberg's music, and that he continued to work in the Schoenberg archive after the composer's death,  suggests that they had a good working relationship I think.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

ahinton

#451
Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 12:06:35 AM
According to Malcolm MacDonald, Steuermann was one of Schoenberg's pupils and had come recommended by Busoni, which is interesting. The fact that he premiered so much of Schoenberg's music, and that he continued to work in the Schoenberg archive after the composer's death,  suggests that they had a good working relationship I think.
Indeed - and for someone who once programmed Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica, a piano arrangement of Schönberg's First Chamber Symphony and Reger's Variations and Fugue on a theme of Bach in a single recital, he must either have been an overly courageous fool or a very fine pianist indeed; I once studied with one of his piano pupils (who had also studied composition briefly with Webern) and, from what he told me about Steuermann, it was clear that he was very much the latter.

Malcolm MacDonald was one of the finest British writers on music and a most reliable and insightful critic as well; it is most sad that he is no longer with us. A Schönbergian through and through, his volumes on other composers as diverse as Varèse, Brian, Stevenson and Brahms are essential reading and likely to remain so. I remember once telling him that I'd just heard Hilary Hahn's then new recording of Schönberg's Violin Concerto and been persuaded for the first time by her performance that the concerto is actually a piece of music; watching the steam rushing from the ears of this usually placid and agreeable fellow was a joy and, of course, we had a good laugh about it!

Mandryka

#452


Eureka!

The Koldofsky Trio gave the West Coast Premier of op 45 and according to Sabine Feist's book on Schoenberg in America, the composer was pleased with the way they played it. Their style is noticeably more reflective and less dramatic than what we have become used to from Juilliard, La Salle etc. I like what they do a lot - as with Steuermann, the composer's taste and my taste seem to be more or less in alignment. Once again, HIP is good.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

ahinton

Quote from: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 08:18:54 AMThe Koldofsky Trio gave the West Coast Premier of op 45 and according to Sabine Feist's book on Schoenberg in America, the composer was pleased with the way the played it.
Feisst, methinks (a pedant speaks) - but yes indeed.

SharpEleventh

Nice to hear various viewpoints on opus 23. The last movement is from technical point of view somewhat unique not only for being the first 12 tone piece but also for using the tone row only in its untransposed prime form. The weird thing that happened for me is that it sounded like completely random piano banging for several listenings then suddenly it just clicked and sounded fairly sensible to my ears. Usually with Schoenberg that happens more gradually.

Mahlerian

"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Mahlerian

"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Cato

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mahlerian

Quote from: Cato on January 08, 2017, 11:18:03 AM
Many thanks for your efforts on behalf of the original Ahr-nohld! ;)

Oh, he'll be back.  ;)
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Mahlerian

"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg