Schoenberg's Sheen

[Mirror Image]

I'm not arguing with the term, I'm saying that the concept is useless.

It's all terms to me. I either dig something or I don't. Whether it's with or without a key is of no importance to me.

[Karl Henning]

(BTW, in my admittedly limited understanding, wasn't one of the aims of serialism the goal of having no particular note or group of notes take center stage?)

No.

I'd say, in at least one sense, yes. Or at least, probably.  It grew out of the rich chromaticism wherewith composers were weakening the sense of a tonal center. I don't know that Schoenberg ever specified thus, but he and Webern typically favored source sets whose sequence of pitches did not trend to [suggesting a center]. However, the series for Berg's Violin Concerto is arguably three tetrads, each of which is essentially a "tonal artifact"; and I don't believe Schoenberg ever felt that Berg was "doing it wrong," in terms of applying the method.

[Mahlerian]

No.



I'd say, in at least one sense, yes. Or at least, probably.  It grew out of the rich chromaticism wherewith composers were weakening the sense of a tonal center. I don't know that Schoenberg ever specified thus, but he and Webern typically favored source sets whose sequence of pitches did not trend to [suggesting a center]. However, the series for Berg's Violin Concerto is arguably three tetrads, each of which is essentially a "tonal artifact"; and I don't believe Schoenberg ever felt that Berg was "doing it wrong," in terms of applying the method.

Like I said, they used the method in such a way so as not to suggest a diatonic key (which is what Schoenberg would have understood by the term tonal center), but not to avoid emphasizing given pitches.  As for traditional harmonies, there is a row that Schoenberg used in the Suite Op. 29 and the Ode to Napoleon that allowed him to produce lots of triads.  Granted, he often superimposes multiple triads, but they're all over both pieces.  He said in his writings that he and his students did tend to avoid conventional harmonic formations, but felt that this was no requirement of the style and that future generations would synthesize the old methods and the new.

If Schoenberg wanted to avoid suggesting any kind of center for his pieces, what would the purpose have been in, in the Wind Quintet, focusing so much on E-flat and B-flat?  There's no requirement in the 12-tone method that says that one should use the untransposed rows more than transposed ones.  The piece ends on a unison E-flat, which is not a dissonance by anyone's standards.  I'm not suggesting that the piece is in a key, because that has so many other requirements relating to functional harmony and voice leading and so forth, but rather that Schoenberg's use of specific pitches does emphasize certain of them over others.

[bwv 1080]

Brahms with wrong notes

[millionrainbows]

Yes, Schoenberg uses thematic, melodic, motivic elements, but these have more of an intervallic identity of relations, like 'shapes', rather than emphasizing certain specific pitch identities by name. If you start claiming pitch identity, by naming notes like Eb, then you are getting into tonality.

Even if a certain pitch identity like Eb is emphasized, all that will do is create a singularity, a localized and momentary pitch station in a heavily chromatic environment. It has no overriding or structural tonal significance.

[snyprrr]

I've got wood... let's build a pyre!!

[Karl Henning]

I've got wood... let's build a pyre!!

You sure it's wood, and not particle board?

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[Cato]

I have just come across one of the greatest performances I have ever heard of Pelleas und Melisande !!!

From the Concertgebouw Orchestra nearly 30 years ago, with Christoph von Dohnanyi conducting!

It just appeared today on YouTube!  One of the commenters writes that it is probably from a large collection of Concertgebouw CD's with live performances.

https://www.youtube.com/v/P0LVDX6OIW8

[Karl Henning]

Can't be bad!

[Karl Henning]

"Schoenberg remains; those who cannot understand him come and go."
—Chas. Wuorinen

[snyprrr]

"Schoenberg remains; those who cannot understand him come and go."
—Chas. Wuorinen

Puh-leez

[snyprrr]

Serenade
Suite
Wind Quintet

I took out the two Atherton/Decca discs; I'm always up for the Serenade, probably because of the mandolin- there's a profuse garden of detail in all three works. I still find they sound like... well, whatever they've been sounding like to me for the duration: yea, no, not the sound of "mental illness", but, frankly, you'll never find a town where all the characters exhibit the tendencies that all the characters do in Schoenberg's world. It's just that everyone's just like him. It makes for nice embroidery, but, I still fail to find the propulsive motivation for it all- why does he feel the need to fill up every last space with the exact same amount of detail? And, the old fashioned rhythms, coupled with the new fangled harmony, still leads to a fractured vision. To me, it can symbolize vegetation growing, but not human interaction, though it still "sounds" as if it is trying to imitate the complexities of the human experience.

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time, equaling Late Hindemith.

...
Of course, I find the Atherton Box charming, along with the SQs (Arditti). Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more. The String Trio gives the update...

[Karl Henning]

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time.

Puh-leez

[Mahlerian]

Serenade
Suite
Wind Quintet

I took out the two Atherton/Decca discs; I'm always up for the Serenade, probably because of the mandolin- there's a profuse garden of detail in all three works. I still find they sound like... well, whatever they've been sounding like to me for the duration: yea, no, not the sound of "mental illness", but, frankly, you'll never find a town where all the characters exhibit the tendencies that all the characters do in Schoenberg's world. It's just that everyone's just like him. It makes for nice embroidery, but, I still fail to find the propulsive motivation for it all- why does he feel the need to fill up every last space with the exact same amount of detail? And, the old fashioned rhythms, coupled with the new fangled harmony, still leads to a fractured vision. To me, it can symbolize vegetation growing, but not human interaction, though it still "sounds" as if it is trying to imitate the complexities of the human experience.

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time, equaling Late Hindemith.

...
Of course, I find the Atherton Box charming, along with the SQs (Arditti). Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more. The String Trio gives the update...

Schoenberg's rhythms aren't nearly so traditional as the old criticism would imply.  His later works tended not to use odd divisions of the pulse, but the actual interplay between the various lines was often extremely complex.  So many tunes...

[kyjo]

Anyone else here a fan of Schoenberg's delightfully quirky Cello Concerto based on Monn's Harpsichord Concerto in D major? It's hardly as successfully as his orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet no. 1, and the cello part is quite awkward-sounding at times, but I love it all the same, especially for its kaleidoscopically colorful orchestration.

[Karl Henning]

Anyone else here a fan of Schoenberg's delightfully quirky Cello Concerto based on Monn's Harpsichord Concerto in D major? It's hardly as successfully as his orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet no. 1, and the cello part is quite awkward-sounding at times, but I love it all the same, especially for its kaleidoscopically colorful orchestration.

Aye, great fun.

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[Karl Henning]

This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

[Mahlerian]

This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

It's an amazing work, dramatic, beautiful, searing, incisive, and carrying a greater impact than its relatively short runtime might suggest.  It seems like opera houses are beginning to catch on to this, too, as the more frequent performances in recent years have been very successful.

I don't think it's my favorite Schoenberg work, but probably in my top 5, and definitely in my top 10.  With so many masterpieces, though, it's difficult to choose.

[Karl Henning]

[...] With so many masterpieces, though, it's difficult to choose.

Indeed.

[Cato]

This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

It's an amazing work, dramatic, beautiful, searing, incisive, and carrying a greater impact than its relatively short runtime might suggest.  It seems like opera houses are beginning to catch on to this, too, as the more frequent performances in recent years have been very successful.

There are few endings as searing as Moses, pounding the ground in frustration, unable to communicate his internal, personal, fiery vision of Divinity directly to the fickle, skeptical, stubborn Hebrews.  I have always thought that the - musically - similar ending to another unfinished, religious work, Die Jakobsleiter must  have been echoing in Schoenberg's mind, during the composition of the opera.