Schoenberg's Sheen

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Thanks.  Well, we can only hope that the 150th birthday in 2024 is seen as enough of an occasion to commemorate.  My sense is that Schoenberg's music is being performed more regularly today in Europe than it was before, although it's still something of a rarity on US orchestral programs.

Schoenberg is quite uncontroversial in Australia. A couple of years ago the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra did a series of concerts where they performed all of Beethoven's piano concertos alongside pieces by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. An enormous success that they ended up programming more (Schoenberg and Berg at least) in following seasons. Webern has better chamber music representation in this country I think.

I can imagine there would be some amazing publicity surrounding a Complete Schoenberg Edition of recordings if he were still controversial. In the end, it will probably end up being as popular as a Complete Debussy Edition with people commenting online stuff like 'why release all those pieces as well if few people care about them? Oh well, but I will get it anyway because of the stuff I like already.'

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Mahlerian and Mirror Image I think you should take these ideas to Universal Music Group

[Mirror Image]

Schoenberg is quite uncontroversial in Australia. A couple of years ago the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra did a series of concerts where they performed all of Beethoven's piano concertos alongside pieces by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. An enormous success that they ended up programming more (Schoenberg and Berg at least) in following seasons. Webern has better chamber music representation in this country I think.

I can imagine there would be some amazing publicity surrounding a Complete Schoenberg Edition of recordings if he were still controversial. In the end, it will probably end up being as popular as a Complete Debussy Edition with people commenting online stuff like 'why release all those pieces as well if few people care about them? Oh well, but I will get it anyway because of the stuff I like already.'

Very cool to hear how Schoenberg and co. is doing on the Australian classical scene. I say it's high time! Concert goers need to get their ears out of the gutter. Schoenberg's music isn't controversial and given what has occurred after his time, his music shows strong ties with the past and actually reveals that he never actually broke with tradition as he claimed he had to do because it's the expression found in his music and Berg's and Webern's that makes them Romantic in musical character. Obviously, their music is different, but not so different to where you can't hear what's happening within the music.

Mahlerian has done a far better job of defending of Schoenberg than I could ever do, but, at the end of the day, this music speaks for itself and if a listener puts aside their preconceived notions about what music can do, then I think they, who perhaps is bit apprehensive about the Second Viennese School in general, can appreciate, and eventually, love, what these composers have done.

[Mirror Image]

Mahlerian and Mirror Image I think you should take these ideas to Universal Music Group

I'll leave it to Mahlerian, he's much more versed in Schoenberg than I am.

[Baron Scarpia]

Mahlerian and Mirror Image I think you should take these ideas to Universal Music Group

You really think there is something here they are not aware of?

Sony has a big chunk of it in the Schoenberg-Boulez box. Probably they'd be in a good position to flesh it out with chamber music and the trifles. I personally wouldn't think the transcriptions are so essential to it. Interesting the Boulez managed to convince two different record labels to undertake a complete Alban Berg edition, but not Schoenberg. I wonder if it was Boulez or the record labels types who thought Schoenberg wasn't worth the same effort.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

You really think there is something here they are not aware of?

Sony has a big chunk of it in the Schoenberg-Boulez box. Probably they'd be in a good position to flesh it out with chamber music and the trifles. I personally wouldn't think the transcriptions are so essential to it. Interesting the Boulez managed to convince two different record labels to undertake a complete Alban Berg edition, but not Schoenberg. I wonder if it was Boulez or the record labels types who thought Schoenberg wasn't worth the same effort.

The two complete Webern editions, you mean? Honestly, the complete Webern editions would not be as expensive to make. I like Boulez's Schoenberg box, but I wouldn't mind seeing a properly complete edition with a variety of more recent recordings as well. I'm sure heaps of other people would be interested in one too.

[Baron Scarpia]

The two complete Webern editions, you mean? Honestly, the complete Webern editions would not be as expensive to make. I like Boulez's Schoenberg box, but I wouldn't mind seeing a properly complete edition with a variety of more recent recordings as well. I'm sure heaps of other people would be interested in one too.

Yes, of course, Webern.  True enough, that's only 6 CDs. I wouldn't be too surprised to see a complete Schoenberg, but it will be from a label like Sony that has all the major works in the catalog and only has to record a few odds and ends. Probably Universal (or whatever it is called now) also have enough Schoenberg in the back catalog to make it feasible.

[ritter]

I was wondering, if one of the big label conglomerates were to produce a complete Schoenberg edition (unlikely, but perhaps for the 150th birthday coming up in a few years), how many discs would it fill?  The answer as far as I can tell (excluding most fragments) is 31.

Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Schoenberg Complete Set (31 discs)

Arrangements of Other Composers' Works (4 discs):
1   - Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
2   - Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Reger: Romantic Suite, J. Strauss: Waltzes
3   - Bach: Chorale Preludes, Prelude and Fugue in E-flat, Brahms: Piano Quintet in G minor
4   - Cello Concerto after Monn, String Quartet Concerto after Handel

Chamber Works for mixed ensembles (2 discs):
1   - Wind Quintet Op. 26, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (original version)
2   - Serenade Op. 24, Suite Op. 29, Three Pieces for Chamber Ensemble, Christmas Music

Chamber Works for Strings (4 discs):
1   - Juvenilia, String Quartet in D major
2   - String Quartet No. 1 in D minor, String Quartet No. 2 in F# minor
3   - String Quartet No. 3, String Quartet No. 4
4   - Verklarte Nacht (sextet), String Trio, Phantasy for violin with piano accompaniment

Choral Works (2 discs):
1   - Friede auf Erden, Deutsche Volkslieder (1st version), Canons for chorus, Four Pieces Op. 27, Three Satires Op. 28
2   - Six Pieces Op. 35, Kol Nidre Op. 39, A Survivor from Warsaw Op. 46, Deutsche Volkslieder (2nd version), Choral Works Op. 50a, 50b, 50c

Lieder (5 discs):
1-4 - Lieder for voice and piano
5    - Lieder for voice and orchestra Op. 8 and Op. 22, Herzgewachse, Lied der Waldtaube  (chamber version)

Melodrama (1 disc):
1   - Pierrot lunaire, Ode to Napoleon (chamber version)

Keyboard Music (1 disc):
1   - Works for solo piano, Variations on a Recitative for organ

Opera (4 discs):
1   - Erwartung, Der gluckliche Hand
2   - Von heute auf morgen
3/4 - Moses und Aron

Oratorio (3 discs):
1/2 - Gurrelieder
3    - Die Jakobsleiter

Orchestral Works (5 discs)
1   - Verklarte Nacht (string orchestra), String Quartet No. 2 (string orchestra)
2   - Pelleas und Melisande, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (full orchestra), Chamber Symphony No. 2
3   - Five Pieces Op. 16, Variations for orchestra, Accompaniment to a Cinema Scene, Ode to Napoleon (string orchestra version)
4   - Suite in G for Strings, Prelude to Genesis Op. 44, Theme and Variations Op. 43a
5   - Violin Concerto Op. 36, Piano Concerto Op. 42, Theme and Variations Op. 43b

Great "division" of Schoenberg's work into genres, Mahlerian! Yes, a "Schoenberg Edition" along these lines would be great.

They're only minor, of course, but in the camber music section you've omitted Die eiserne Brigade for piano and SQ, and the arrangement of Denza's Funiculì, funiculà for voice and ensemble.

Best regards,

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Great "division" of Schoenberg's work into genres, Mahlerian! Yes, a "Schoenberg Edition" along these lines would be great.

They're only minor, of course, but in the camber music section you've omitted Die eiserne Brigade for piano and SQ, and the arrangement of Denza's Funiculì, funiculà for voice and ensemble.

Best regards,

One can always count on ritter to find the most obscure ones.......

[Mandryka]

I was wondering, if one of the big label conglomerates were to produce a complete Schoenberg edition (unlikely, but perhaps for the 150th birthday coming up in a few years), how many discs would it fill?  The answer as far as I can tell (excluding most fragments) is 31.

Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Schoenberg Complete Set (31 discs)

Arrangements of Other Composers' Works (4 discs):
1   - Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
2   - Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Reger: Romantic Suite, J. Strauss: Waltzes
3   - Bach: Chorale Preludes, Prelude and Fugue in E-flat, Brahms: Piano Quintet in G minor
4   - Cello Concerto after Monn, String Quartet Concerto after Handel

Chamber Works for mixed ensembles (2 discs):
1   - Wind Quintet Op. 26, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (original version)
2   - Serenade Op. 24, Suite Op. 29, Three Pieces for Chamber Ensemble, Christmas Music

Chamber Works for Strings (4 discs):
1   - Juvenilia, String Quartet in D major
2   - String Quartet No. 1 in D minor, String Quartet No. 2 in F# minor
3   - String Quartet No. 3, String Quartet No. 4
4   - Verklarte Nacht (sextet), String Trio, Phantasy for violin with piano accompaniment

Choral Works (2 discs):
1   - Friede auf Erden, Deutsche Volkslieder (1st version), Canons for chorus, Four Pieces Op. 27, Three Satires Op. 28
2   - Six Pieces Op. 35, Kol Nidre Op. 39, A Survivor from Warsaw Op. 46, Deutsche Volkslieder (2nd version), Choral Works Op. 50a, 50b, 50c

Lieder (5 discs):
1-4 - Lieder for voice and piano
5    - Lieder for voice and orchestra Op. 8 and Op. 22, Herzgewachse, Lied der Waldtaube  (chamber version)

Melodrama (1 disc):
1   - Pierrot lunaire, Ode to Napoleon (chamber version)

Keyboard Music (1 disc):
1   - Works for solo piano, Variations on a Recitative for organ

Opera (4 discs):
1   - Erwartung, Der gluckliche Hand
2   - Von heute auf morgen
3/4 - Moses und Aron

Oratorio (3 discs):
1/2 - Gurrelieder
3    - Die Jakobsleiter

Orchestral Works (5 discs)
1   - Verklarte Nacht (string orchestra), String Quartet No. 2 (string orchestra)
2   - Pelleas und Melisande, Chamber Symphony No. 1 (full orchestra), Chamber Symphony No. 2
3   - Five Pieces Op. 16, Variations for orchestra, Accompaniment to a Cinema Scene, Ode to Napoleon (string orchestra version)
4   - Suite in G for Strings, Prelude to Genesis Op. 44, Theme and Variations Op. 43a
5   - Violin Concerto Op. 36, Piano Concerto Op. 42, Theme and Variations Op. 43b

A cursory glance at the list in Malcolm MacDonald's book suggests that there are some early pieces not included, the piano duets from 1896 for example. And some unfinished music maybe -- the organ sonata of 1941. And lots of arrangements (Reger, Johann Strauss, Schubert . . . ) And some canons: I would love to hear the endless canon for string quartet composed in 1948 for Thomas Mann.

The book is well worth having I think.

[Karl Henning]

One can always count on ritter to find the most obscure ones.......

Curiously, Die eiserne Brigade was on an early Rattle (IIRC) CD . . . .

[Mirror Image]

Curiously, Die eiserne Brigade was on an early Rattle (IIRC) CD . . . .

I'm not sure about Rattle, but it's on this Atherton recording:

[Karl Henning]

I'm not sure about Rattle, but it's on this Atherton recording:

That's what I meant, and misremembered, thanks, John.

[Mirror Image]

That's what I meant, and misremembered, thanks, John.

Pleasure, Karl.

[ritter]

One can always count on ritter to find the most obscure ones.......

Obscure? Obscure you say? Anyone who has not felt the need to explore Die eiserne Brigade is useless as a fan of Schoenberg's music! 

I got to know these pieces (Funiculì, the Brigade, the waltz arrangements) on an LP of Reinbert de Leeuw and his Schönberg Ensemble, which AFAIK was never transferred to CD.

Curiously, I heard the Rosen aus dem Süden transcription live recently here in Madrid (Cambreling conducting the Klangforum Wien) and it seemed endless to me (even if it's only ca. 5 minutes long). The low point of an otherwise superb concert (Ravel's Mallarmé settings, Stravinsky's Japanese Lyrics, and Pierrot Lunaire--all with a wonderful Christine Schäfer)...

[Mahlerian]

Great "division" of Schoenberg's work into genres, Mahlerian! Yes, a "Schoenberg Edition" along these lines would be great.

Thank you!

They're only minor, of course, but in the camber music section you've omitted Die eiserne Brigade for piano and SQ, and the arrangement of Denza's Funiculì, funiculà for voice and ensemble.

Ah, I knew I was forgetting a few things.  There are some juvenilia I didn't bother to list, like the Notturno for strings and harp or Ei du Lutte for choir, but shamefully Die eiserne Brigade slipped my mind entirely.

A cursory glance at the list in Malcolm MacDonald's book suggests that there are some early pieces not included, the piano duets from 1896 for example. And some unfinished music maybe -- the organ sonata of 1941. And lots of arrangements (Reger, Johann Strauss, Schubert . . . ) And some canons: I would love to hear the endless canon for string quartet composed in 1948 for Thomas Mann.

The book is well worth having I think.

I mentioned the Strauss arrangements.  The Reger I did mention, but remember that there have been some Society for Private Performances arrangements mistakenly attributed to Schoenberg (like Busoni's Berceuse Elegaique).

[Mirror Image]

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Schoenberg's music was performed in Vienna in the 1910s and I'm thinking here of the Skandalkonzert of March 31, 1913.

[Mahlerian]

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Schoenberg's music was performed in Vienna in the 1910s and I'm thinking here of the Skandalkonzert of March 31, 1913.

I recreated the program on the 100th anniversary of that concert.  The Zemlinsky Maeterlinck songs are the only item that isn't pretty close to standard repertoire today.

[Mirror Image]

I recreated the program on the 100th anniversary of that concert.  The Zemlinsky Maeterlinck songs are the only item that isn't pretty close to standard repertoire today.

The Zemlinsky would probably be the only thing on the program I wouldn't listen to. I just don't find him to be an interesting composer despite the fact that he was Schoenberg's teacher.

[Baron Scarpia]

From what I gather from a few web pages I came across, the audience started booing and heckling, and the concert promotor got into an argument with an audience member and punched him. Seems like the sort of thing that could only happen nowadays if someones cell phone went off during the concert....