Schoenberg's Sheen

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 07:35:28 AM

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Mahlerian

#540
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on February 26, 2018, 03:19:23 PM
From what I gather from a few web pages I came across, the audience started booing and heckling, and the concert promotor got into an argument with an audience member and punched him. Seems like the sort of thing that could only happen nowadays if someones cell phone went off during the concert....

It got so bad that the police had to break up the concert and Mahler's Kindertotenlieder were never performed.

The moment that really set everything off was this 12-note chord in Berg's Altenberg Lieder:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZeC6eQuyjzM

You can be sure that the chord was not played nearly so accurately, nor the vocal sung so well, at that concert.  And the work was not performed again until the 1950s.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Baron Scarpia

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 03:23:21 PMThe moment that really set everything off was this 12-note chord in Berg's Altenberg Lieder:

I think you are buying into an absurd narrative, that the audience, sitting there, would hear a 12-tone chord and explode in rage like fans at an English football match. I think it is much more likely that various members of the orchestra told all their friends, "you won't believe the sh** that that degenerate Schoenberg has us playing. You have to come out and show that stuck-up ass that we won't stand for it."

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 25, 2018, 09:21:35 AM
Did I miss anything that Schoenberg wrote or arranged himself?

Would Book of the Hanging Gardens, Op.15 fall under the lieder section?
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 03:23:21 PM
It got so bad that the police had to break up the concert and Mahler's Kindertotenlieder were never performed.

The moment that really set everything off was this 12-note chord in Berg's Altenberg Lieder:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZeC6eQuyjzM

You can be sure that the chord was not played nearly so accurately, nor the vocal sung so well, at that concert.  And the work was not performed again until the 1950s.

How do you know it was that chord and not something else that had been played or even spoken? Do you have proof that it's that Berg chord that riled up the audience or is all of this just an assumption on your part?

Mahlerian

#544
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on February 26, 2018, 04:09:45 PMI think you are buying into an absurd narrative, that the audience, sitting there, would hear a 12-tone chord and explode in rage like fans at an English football match. I think it is much more likely that various members of the orchestra told all their friends, "you won't believe the sh** that that degenerate Schoenberg has us playing. You have to come out and show that stuck-up ass that we won't stand for it."

Schoenberg had already been controversial since Verklarte Nacht, and there is no doubt that people came ready to hate what they heard.  On top of that, the texts of the Berg songs were themselves seen as provocative, being written by a person who was currently locked up in an asylum.

I'm not saying that the audience revolted because they heard an unfamiliar sound, I'm saying the audience took the whole thing as a joke and that Berg's settings were seen as the last straw.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 05:09:54 PM
How do you know it was that chord and not something else that had been played or even spoken? Do you have proof that it's that Berg chord that riled up the audience or all of this just an assumption on your part?

Yes.  This is corroborated in descriptions of the event itself.  As I said, the whole concert broke down after that particular song, degenerating into a riot.

From the Lexicon of Musical Invective:
QuoteAlban Berg, one of Schoenberg's pupils, somehow persuaded a singer to immolate himself in singing his songs.  They demanded a range of something like three octaves, including a desperate falsetto and a downward progression which no singer on earth could have made to sound like anything other than a wail.  'Over the border of the All,' he sang, 'you look meditatingly out,' and a few wheezes and groans from the orchestra accompanied the announcement.  The following notes could not be heard for laughter.  Schoenberg, who conducted, turned around and said: 'I beg those who cannot remain quiet to leave the hall.'  Then he began all over again--'Over the borders of the All.'  Somehow he got through it.

Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Mahlerian

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 26, 2018, 04:33:08 PM
Would Book of the Hanging Gardens, Op.15 fall under the lieder section?

Yes, it would.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 05:20:45 PM
Schoenberg had already been controversial since Verklarte Nacht, and there is no doubt that people came ready to hate what they heard.  On top of that, the texts of the Berg songs were themselves seen as provocative, being written by a person who was currently locked up in an asylum.

I'm not saying that the audience revolted because they heard an unfamiliar sound, I'm saying the audience took the whole thing as a joke and that Berg's settings were seen as the last straw.

Yes.  This is corroborated in descriptions of the event itself.  As I said, the whole concert broke down after that particular song, degenerating into a riot.

From the Lexicon of Musical Invective:
Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/

Thanks for the feedback my Second Viennese School brother. 8)

Baron Scarpia

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 05:20:45 PM

QuoteAlban Berg, one of Schoenberg's pupils, somehow persuaded a singer to immolate himself in singing his songs.  They demanded a range of something like three octaves, including a desperate falsetto and a downward progression which no singer on earth could have made to sound like anything other than a wail.  'Over the border of the All,' he sang, 'you look meditatingly out,' and a few wheezes and groans from the orchestra accompanied the announcement.  The following notes could not be heard for laughter.  Schoenberg, who conducted, turned around and said: 'I beg those who cannot remain quiet to leave the hall.'  Then he began all over again--'Over the borders of the All.'  Somehow he got through it.

Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/

Sounds like the "disturbance" was just uproarious laughter until Schoenberg's concerto promotor slugged someone.


Mirror Image

It still amazes me to this day that this music from Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern still hasn't quite had the breakthrough it deserves. There are still people who view this music as something that belongs to a horror film soundtrack. I personally find much of the music from these three composers to be quite beautiful, haunting, and intensely passionate. I do often wonder what progress has been made in classical listeners' general outlook of these three composers? Does it still remain something of an elusive music that people simply haven't developed a taste for? Is it a general lack of exposure? What do you guys think? And please, let's be respectful of not only the composers, but of each other and not let this get out-of-hand.

kishnevi

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 26, 2018, 05:20:45 PM
Schoenberg had already been controversial since Verklarte Nacht, and there is no doubt that people came ready to hate what they heard.  On top of that, the texts of the Berg songs were themselves seen as provocative, being written by a person who was currently locked up in an asylum.

I'm not saying that the audience revolted because they heard an unfamiliar sound, I'm saying the audience took the whole thing as a joke and that Berg's settings were seen as the last straw.

Yes.  This is corroborated in descriptions of the event itself.  As I said, the whole concert broke down after that particular song, degenerating into a riot.

From the Lexicon of Musical Invective:
Afterwards it didn't proceed, because the disturbance had become too great.

See also here:
https://www.classical-scene.com/2013/03/27/scandal/

Hold up.
Schoenberg was controversial since Verklarte Nacht?!

What could be controversial about VN?

Mirror Image

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 26, 2018, 08:38:40 PM
Hold up.
Schoenberg was controversial since Verklarte Nacht?!

What could be controversial about VN?

From Wikipedia:

Verklärte Nacht was controversial at its 1902 premiere. This was due to the highly advanced harmonic idiom, although Schoenberg did receive praise for his inventiveness. Some reaction was due to the use of Dehmel's poem as inspiration, questioning the viability of setting its themes to music, or being concerned about the situation of the woman in the story. The work does employ a richly chromatic language and often ventures far from the home key, though the work is clearly rooted in D minor. A particular point of controversy was the use of a single 'nonexistent' (that is, uncategorized and therefore unpermitted) inverted ninth chord, which resulted in its rejection by the Vienna Music Society. Schoenberg remarked "and thus (the work) cannot be performed since one cannot perform that which does not exist".

wolftone

My god, how dare somebody make music I dislike!

Mahlerian

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 26, 2018, 08:38:40 PM
Hold up.
Schoenberg was controversial since Verklarte Nacht?!

What could be controversial about VN?

It was tuneless, dissonant, and ugly, as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Karl Henning

Jeffrey is right, though, that from our perspective, finding Verklärte Nacht "ugly" is . . . queerly finicky.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 05:32:37 AM
It was tuneless, dissonant, and ugly, as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet.

This was actually a quote from someone --- the name slips me right now.

Mahlerian

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2018, 08:19:55 PM
It still amazes me to this day that this music from Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern still hasn't quite had the breakthrough it deserves. There are still people who view this music as something that belongs to a horror film soundtrack. I personally find much of the music from these three composers to be quite beautiful, haunting, and intensely passionate. I do often wonder what progress has been made in classical listeners' general outlook of these three composers? Does it still remain something of an elusive music that people simply haven't developed a taste for? Is it a general lack of exposure? What do you guys think? And please, let's be respectful of not only the composers, but of each other and not let this get out-of-hand.

Reputation has something to do with it, I feel, as well as lack of exposure, and both of those feed into each other.  If people aren't familiar with Schoenberg's style and take a cursory listen to one of his pieces, they may come away merely hearing nothing but a jumble of notes without rhyme or reason, especially if that's what they're expecting given the reputation of his music.

I was fortunate not to know anything about his reputation when I first encountered the music, and it surprised me to find that others considered this music tuneless and ugly.

There's also the fact that people like to have someone to blame for how much they despise current modern trends, and Schoenberg has remained a convenient scapegoat for others' "sins," even when his music is completely different on a stylistic level from those trends.  This has nothing to do with anything Schoenberg or his school composed, and everything to do with what they represent in the minds of a certain segment of listeners.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Karl Henning

Someday (perhaps) Schoenberg will cease to be the whipping boy.

But maybe not in my lifetime.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 06:05:48 AM
Reputation has something to do with it, I feel, as well as lack of exposure, and both of those feed into each other.  If people aren't familiar with Schoenberg's style and take a cursory listen to one of his pieces, they may come away merely hearing nothing but a jumble of notes without rhyme or reason, especially if that's what they're expecting given the reputation of his music.

I was fortunate not to know anything about his reputation when I first encountered the music, and it surprised me to find that others considered this music tuneless and ugly.

There's also the fact that people like to have someone to blame for how much they despise current modern trends, and Schoenberg has remained a convenient scapegoat for others' "sins," even when his music is completely different on a stylistic level from those trends.  This has nothing to do with anything Schoenberg or his school composed, and everything to do with what they represent in the minds of a certain segment of listeners.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 27, 2018, 06:18:13 AM
Someday (perhaps) Schoenberg will cease to be the whipping boy.

But maybe not in my lifetime.

There's certainly a lot of truth in both of these posts.

Jo498

Quote from: Mahlerian on February 27, 2018, 05:32:37 AM
It was tuneless, dissonant, and ugly, as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet.
The last clause is actually quite brilliantly funny and not at all an unfitting description of Verklärte Nacht. It does not suffice to establish tuneless and ugly, of course.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Baron Scarpia

There are at least 500 CDs of Schoenberg's music in the catalog. There are multiple recordings of all of his major works by reputable conductors, performers and ensembles. Do we really have to start the "Schoenberg is the whipping boy" discussion again? His works are widely known and available, he is just as popular as he should be.