Schoenberg's Sheen

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 07:35:28 AM

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Mandryka

Quote from: hvbias on December 31, 2020, 08:40:47 AM


We have to have some metrics by what great music and interpretation is.

Why?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

Quote from: hvbias on December 31, 2020, 08:40:47 AM
Couldn't disagree strongly enough that one needs to perform it to have that opinion. Maybe I could agree that one need be able to read a score to have that opinion. After you've listened to enough of a composer's music, the period in which it was composed, when in his career it was composed and what he/she has written on their music you can get a very good idea what a good interpretation is and what a poor one is.

Otherwise everything just turns into this convivial, "it's all wonderful to you!"

We have to have some metrics by what great music and interpretation is. I'm surprised this is news to you given the rather broad blanket statements you make on dismissing performances.

It's not news to me and my point is everything we think is a question of whether we like it or not and also remember, I never dismissed Arditti's performances, I just disagreed that they're better than the Schoenberg Quartet. Thankfully, Schoenberg has been served well by many great quartets through the years that there's enough differentiation between all the recorded performances that we can choose which one to listen to.

Cato

This may be for a very small   8)    niche market: Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire with animation.


https://www.youtube.com/v/Zu4Hp4SUXSs&t=320s



"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mirror Image

Quote from: Cato on February 15, 2021, 04:45:17 AM
This may be for a very small   8)    niche market: Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire with animation.


https://www.youtube.com/v/Zu4Hp4SUXSs&t=320s

Hmmm....that was interesting. I love Pierre Lunaire, but without the visuals. :)

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2021, 07:01:05 AM
Hmmm....that was interesting. I love Pierre Lunaire, but without the visuals. :)

I am not so sure anything is revealed by the animation.   

Not unlike a reinterpretation of  Der Ring der Nibelungen as a story of motorcycle gangs.    8)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mirror Image

Quote from: Cato on February 15, 2021, 07:30:55 AM
I am not so sure anything is revealed by the animation.   

Not unlike a reinterpretation of  Der Ring der Nibelungen as a story of motorcycle gangs.    8)

Well, it does come down to personal taste as with so much when discussing this music. Yeah, I don't think I've heard about that Wagner interpretation. That definitely wouldn't be my thing. Wagner and the Hells Angels? Ah, no. Just no. :D

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2021, 07:44:41 AM
Well, it does come down to personal taste as with so much when discussing this music. Yeah, I don't think I've heard about that Wagner interpretation. That definitely wouldn't be my thing. Wagner and the Hells Angels? Ah, no. Just no. :D

Well..something close to it has happened!

Quote

"...The King of the Gods wears a tuxedo and drives a classic Thunderbird convertible, he's joined in modern dress by Loge (voiced by Steven Sayer, who later doubles as Hagen) in a red sequined dinner jacket, Freia in a low cut minidress and Siegfried in a track suit. Brünnhilde wears an elegant gown, and her sister Walküren, kicking like the Rockettes, are decked out in leather jackets and miniskirts, like a motorcycle gang of flight attendants.

And there is indeed a motorcycle. Siegmund rides in on his chopper like Dennis Hopper from Easy Rid
er. The contemporary viewpoint powers the irreverence towards Wagner..."




https://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2013/12/they-must-be-puppets-magical-salzburg-marionette-theatre-runs-rings-around-wagner/
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

ritter

None of what's described regarding that interpretation of the Ring shocks me in the least--I saw and admired the Castorf staging, after all--, but that someone can sing the role of  Loge (a tenor) and that of Hagen (a bass) is baffling... ;)

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

T. D.

Off-topic, but since strange productions came up:
I saw a video of the bizarre 2019 Bayreuth Tannhäuser...well, as far as I could get through it, and it seriously diminished my appetite for "director theatre". I'm generally reasonably well-disposed toward the avant-garde or the weird, but enough is enough!

Video:
https://www.operaonvideo.com/tannhauser-bayreuth-2019-gould-davidsen-milling-eiche-gergiev/

Reviews (surprisingly positive  ???):
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/26/arts/music/tannhauser-bayreuth-review.html
https://www.wagneropera.net/articles/articles-bayreuth-2019-berry-tannhauser.htm
(I shudder to think of the 2011 Bayreuth Tannhäuser panned in the latter review, and leave it to the more adventurous to search for video)

Cato

Quote from: T. D. on February 15, 2021, 03:11:11 PM
Off-topic, but since strange productions came up:
I saw a video of the bizarre 2019 Bayreuth Tannhäuser...well, as far as I could get through it, and it seriously diminished my appetite for "director theatre". I'm generally reasonably well-disposed toward the avant-garde or the weird, but enough is enough!

Video:
https://www.operaonvideo.com/tannhauser-bayreuth-2019-gould-davidsen-milling-eiche-gergiev/

Reviews (surprisingly positive  ???):
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/26/arts/music/tannhauser-bayreuth-review.html
https://www.wagneropera.net/articles/articles-bayreuth-2019-berry-tannhauser.htm
(I shudder to think of the 2011 Bayreuth Tannhäuser panned in the latter review, and leave it to the more adventurous to search for video)


You might like the essays of Conrad Osborne on the "auteurial" problem:

Quote

Opera, maintains the author of this comprehensive and provocative volume, finds itself in an artistic predicament that goes beyond previous generational disruptions and "is our own, and special." Arguing that we cannot solve the problem unless we recognize and define it, and that we cannot hope to envision the artform's future unless we first come to terms with its past, he examines all elements of recent operatic practice as revealed in performance—"Performance," he declares, "is our text." He asserts that with renewal of the repertory long at a virtual standstill, we have tried to substitute auteurial production methods and cultural revisionism in its place, with disastrous results.


See:


https://conradlosborne.com/opera-as-opera/

He has a bi-weekly to monthly essay on opera: you will find the link above.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mirror Image

To my fellow Schoenbergians, what do you guys think of Robert Craft's series on Naxos (originally Koch)? I own all of his recordings, but it's been years since I've listened to any of his performances. Worth the exploration?

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 28, 2021, 07:55:33 AM
To my fellow Schoenbergians, what do you guys think of Robert Craft's series on Naxos (originally Koch)? I own all of his recordings, but it's been years since I've listened to any of his performances. Worth the exploration?

Yes!  I assume those are the Columbia recordings (before they were Koch/NAXOS), with e.g. the great Helga Pilarczyk singing Erwartung?

e.g.






But, even if they are not the earlier ones above, yes, listen to them: I would think that Robert Craft's skills did not become worse in later years! 
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Karl Henning

The only Craft recording on Koch of which I know I have reservations, is //Gurrelieder, but that is because the tenor soloist (IIRC) sounds a bit caprine.  Having written that, I'll go ahead and revisit that.  Overall, I do like all his work on the Koch recordings, of both Arnold & Igor.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: Cato on March 29, 2021, 04:29:03 PM
Yes!  I assume those are the Columbia recordings (before they were Koch/NAXOS), with e.g. the great Helga Pilarczyk singing Erwartung?

e.g.






But, even if they are not the earlier ones above, yes, listen to them: I would think that Robert Craft's skills did not become worse in later years!

The Erwartung in this Naxos series is the formidable Anja Silja. But yes, I certainly get the jest of what you're saying. Craft was an excellent conductor and he seemed especially at home in Schoenberg, Webern and Stravinsky.

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 29, 2021, 04:55:49 PM
The only Craft recording on Koch of which I know I have reservations, is //Gurrelieder, but that is because the tenor soloist (IIRC) sounds a bit caprine.  Having written that, I'll go ahead and revisit that.  Overall, I do like all his work on the Koch recordings, of both Arnold & Igor.

Thanks for the feedback, Karl. I recall several other people commenting that they didn't particularly care for Craft's traversal of Gurrelieder, but it seems I had listened to it many years ago and found it quite good.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2021, 05:44:02 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Karl. I recall several other people commenting that they didn't particularly care for Craft's traversal of Gurrelieder, but it seems I had listened to it many years ago and found it quite good.

It is good, I may be able to filter out the objectionable timbre 8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image


Cato

For your consideration: somebody has created a cartoon following the story in the poem.Verklaerte Nacht.



https://www.youtube.com/v/AkmsjlbPh2M
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

VonStupp

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2021, 06:52:20 PM
A nice choice! What works from Schoenberg do you know and like?

Well, I heard Schoenberg's Op. 34 in concert last month and realized I need to pull his music out more often. Aside from one or two, I am dreadfully unfamiliar with his choral music, which is why I picked up the Boulez.

Otherwise, many ages ago, I had a friend who considered himself a connoisseur of Sprechstimme technique. I was introduced (and inundated) by many versions of Pierrot lunaire, and his opinions of who did it best, but I became accustomed to that style over time from his obsession.

I think I have heard most, if not all, of Schoenberg's purely orchestral works; and of course Gurre-Lieder and a few of his songs such as Herzgewächse and Hanging Gardens. But I haven't approached his operas, string quartets, or piano pieces, so there is a journey yet to explore.

Listening, I still have to mentally prepare myself for what I am going to listen to in order to appreciate, but I also can't walk away. The more time I spend with his music, the better I am to receive it. At times, Schoenberg is forbidding, yet other times I am much more receptive, so I am not quite there yet with everything from him, although I admire his ability to orchestrate in particular.

Once upon a time, it was the same for some Stravinsky, Shostakovich, and Britten, but most of those are a walk in the park now, and I enjoy their musical personalities. Now I haven't visited Schoenberg for quite some time, except for Karajan's traversals that I heard most recently, so some new items will be exciting to visit. We will see how I walk back into it.

VS
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."