Schoenberg's Sheen

[Karl Henning]

Well, I heard Schoenberg's Op. 34 in concert last month and realized I need to pull his music out more often. Aside from one or two, I am dreadfully unfamiliar with his choral music, which is why I picked up the Boulez.

Otherwise, many ages ago, I had a friend who considered himself a connoisseur of Sprechstimme technique. I was introduced (and inundated) by many versions of Pierrot lunaire, and his opinions of who did it best, but I became accustomed to that style over time from his obsession.

I think I have heard most, if not all, of Schoenberg's purely orchestral works; and of course Gurre-Lieder and a few of his songs such as Herzgewächse and Hanging Gardens. But I haven't approached his operas, string quartets, or piano pieces, so there is a journey yet to explore.

Listening, I still have to mentally prepare myself for what I am going to listen to in order to appreciate, but I also can't walk away. The more time I spend with his music, the better I am to receive it. At times, Schoenberg is forbidding, yet other times I am much more receptive, so I am not quite there yet with everything from him, although I admire his ability to orchestrate in particular.

Once upon a time, it was the same for some Stravinsky, Shostakovich, and Britten, but most of those are a walk in the park now, and I enjoy their musical personalities. Now I haven't visited Schoenberg for quite some time, except for Karajan's traversals that I heard most recently, so some new items will be exciting to visit. We will see how I walk back into it.

VS

Splendid!

[Mirror Image]

Well, I heard Schoenberg's Op. 34 in concert last month and realized I need to pull his music out more often. Aside from one or two, I am dreadfully unfamiliar with his choral music, which is why I picked up the Boulez.

Otherwise, many ages ago, I had a friend who considered himself a connoisseur of Sprechstimme technique. I was introduced (and inundated) by many versions of Pierrot lunaire, and his opinions of who did it best, but I became accustomed to that style over time from his obsession.

I think I have heard most, if not all, of Schoenberg's purely orchestral works; and of course Gurre-Lieder and a few of his songs such as Herzgewächse and Hanging Gardens. But I haven't approached his operas, string quartets, or piano pieces, so there is a journey yet to explore.

Listening, I still have to mentally prepare myself for what I am going to listen to in order to appreciate, but I also can't walk away. The more time I spend with his music, the better I am to receive it. At times, Schoenberg is forbidding, yet other times I am much more receptive, so I am not quite there yet with everything from him, although I admire his ability to orchestrate in particular.

Once upon a time, it was the same for some Stravinsky, Shostakovich, and Britten, but most of those are a walk in the park now, and I enjoy their musical personalities. Now I haven't visited Schoenberg for quite some time, except for Karajan's traversals that I heard most recently, so some new items will be exciting to visit. We will see how I walk back into it.

VS

Excellent to read, VS. I have found that the more time I spend with Schoenberg, the more I understand it and, most of all, love it. I will say that his "Free Atonal" period is by far my favorite in terms of compositions. Works like Fünf Orchesterstücke, Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand and, of course, Pierrot Lunaire. For me, these are some of his most important works in terms of helping me understand his musical language and getting inside of it. I hope you continue to explore his music and his SQs are superb as are works like the String Trio, Wind Quintet etc.

[Cato]

Excellent to read, VS. I have found that the more time I spend with Schoenberg, the more I understand it and, most of all, love it. I will say that his "Free Atonal" period is by far my favorite in terms of compositions. Works like Fünf Orchesterstücke, Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand and, of course, Pierrot Lunaire. For me, these are some of his most important works in terms of helping me understand his musical language and getting inside of it. I hope you continue to explore his music and his SQs are superb as are works like the String Trio, Wind Quintet etc.

Circa 50 years ago, Alexander Tcherepnin, after looking at my early works, wrote to me that his main advice would not be about technicalities or theory or anything else. 

It was simply: "You must listen to more music."  Expand your ears and your understanding of works which you find puzzling and your own compositions will benefit.

[Mirror Image]

Circa 50 years ago, Alexander Tcherepnin, after looking at my early works, wrote to me that his main advice would not be about technicalities or theory or anything else. 

It was simply: "You must listen to more music."  Expand your ears and your understanding of works which you find puzzling and your own compositions will benefit.

I think that's true, but not everyone has the fortitude to withstand Schoenberg's atonal barrages and this is completely fine. He's not for everyone just like Wagner isn't for everyone.

[krummholz]

Excellent to read, VS. I have found that the more time I spend with Schoenberg, the more I understand it and, most of all, love it. I will say that his "Free Atonal" period is by far my favorite in terms of compositions. Works like Fünf Orchesterstücke, Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand and, of course, Pierrot Lunaire. For me, these are some of his most important works in terms of helping me understand his musical language and getting inside of it. I hope you continue to explore his music and his SQs are superb as are works like the String Trio, Wind Quintet etc.

Mine also, though I'd start with the period just before he broke with tonality, with Chamber Symphony #1 and the 2nd String Quartet. The works he wrote after he codified the 12-tone technique I find less interesting. There is something about that free atonal period, both with Schoenberg and with Webern, where it seemed for a while as if anything were possible. Many of those works were truly breathtaking.

As an exception to what I just wrote: I also find the 4th String Quartet exciting and very interesting despite being a 12-tone work. But I do feel that something was lost when the 12-tone technique became "the law". Even as fine a work as the String Trio doesn't elicit in me the sense of discovery and limitless possibilities that I get from the earlier works.

[Mirror Image]

Mine also, though I'd start with the period just before he broke with tonality, with Chamber Symphony #1 and the 2nd String Quartet. The works he wrote after he codified the 12-tone technique I find less interesting. There is something about that free atonal period, both with Schoenberg and with Webern, where it seemed for a while as if anything were possible. Many of those works were truly breathtaking.

As an exception to what I just wrote: I also find the 4th String Quartet exciting and very interesting despite being a 12-tone work. But I do feel that something was lost when the 12-tone technique became "the law". Even as fine a work as the String Trio doesn't elicit in me the sense of discovery and limitless possibilities that I get from the earlier works.

I think it's that kind of stream-of-consciousness in the free atonal period that allures me. It is kind of like the emotion of the work is the focal point and the music follows that particular emotion until the end. The emotional eruptions in works like Erwartung and Fünf Orchesterstücke are, in particular, exhilarating, but I do like many works from his 12-tone period. I do realize a composer needs to continue to evolve and this hasn't been more evident than in Schoenberg's music (Stravinsky and Hindemith come to mind here as well). With Hindemith, for example, he began writing Expressionist music before going off a Neoclassical (or Neo-Baroque?) direction, but, unlike Stravinsky for example, he never went done that atonal rabbit hole, although there were certainly some knotty sounding works along the way.

[VonStupp]

Excellent to read, VS. I have found that the more time I spend with Schoenberg, the more I understand it and, most of all, love it. I will say that his "Free Atonal" period is by far my favorite in terms of compositions. Works like Fünf Orchesterstücke, Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand and, of course, Pierrot Lunaire. For me, these are some of his most important works in terms of helping me understand his musical language and getting inside of it. I hope you continue to explore his music and his SQs are superb as are works like the String Trio, Wind Quintet etc.

Interesting; I don't think I have consciously listened to Schoenberg by compositional period, I have approached him more by genre, although I may try it to see if my response differs.

VS

[Mandryka]

As an exception to what I just wrote: I also find the 4th String Quartet exciting and very interesting despite being a 12-tone work. But I do feel that something was lost when the 12-tone technique became "the law". Even as fine a work as the String Trio doesn't elicit in me the sense of discovery and limitless possibilities that I get from the earlier works.

My own favourite is the 3rd quartet. In fact, inspired by your post, I've been listening to Arditti playing the last couple of quartets this afternoon.

However, my real reason for posting is to ask people a favour. Can anyone let me have - or find me an affordable copy of - Arditti Quartet playing the trio?

[Mirror Image]

My own favourite is the 3rd quartet. In fact, inspired by your post, I've been listening to Arditti playing the last couple of quartets this afternoon.

However, my real reason for posting is to ask people a favour. Can anyone let me have - or find me an affordable copy of - Arditti Quartet playing the trio?

I prefer the Schoenberg Quartet's cycle on Chandos to the Arditti.

[Mandryka]

I prefer the Schoenberg Quartet's cycle on Chandos to the Arditti.

That was the one which made me interested in the music in fact.

[Mirror Image]

Interesting; I don't think I have consciously listened to Schoenberg by compositional period, I have approached him more by genre, although I may try it to see if my response differs.

VS

I haven't consciously listened to Schoenberg by compositional period either, because whenever I first got into his music, I simply wasn't aware of these distinct periods, I just listened. But, as time wore on, I did a lot of reading about him (and listening, too, of course) and learned more about his compositional progress from the Late-Romantic works until the 12-tone period and everything in-between. One thing that I do like about Schoenberg is that he never stood still compositionally-speaking. He was always forging ahead with new ideas and one has to admire his attitude where he did what he wanted even in the face of much descent from his contemporaries and audiences.

[Mirror Image]

That was the one which made me interested in the music in fact.

[VonStupp]

I haven't consciously listened to Schoenberg by compositional period either, because whenever I first got into his music, I simply wasn't aware of these distinct periods, I just listened. But, as time wore on, I did a lot of reading about him (and listening, too, of course) and learned more about his compositional progress from the Late-Romantic works until the 12-tone period and everything in-between. One thing that I do like about Schoenberg is that he never stood still compositionally-speaking. He was always forging ahead with new ideas and one has to admire his attitude where he did what he wanted even in the face of much descent from his contemporaries and audiences.

This is one of the things I cherish about Stravinsky too. Perhaps I can find a through-line from Schoenberg's periods of composition.

VS

[Karl Henning]

This is one of the things I cherish about Stravinsky too. Perhaps I can find a through-line from Schoenberg's periods of composition.

VS

I am sure of it.

[Mirror Image]

This is one of the things I cherish about Stravinsky too. Perhaps I can find a through-line from Schoenberg's periods of composition.

VS

A bit like Stravinsky. One must remember that Stravinsky had a long period of writing in the Neoclassical style (what like 30 years or so?) whereas Schoenberg pretty much changed styles every work he composed and it really felt like he abandoned everything with each subsequent work that was produced. Anyway, I wish you well in your Schoenbergian journey, but please be sure to stop by the gift shop and pick up some Bergian and Webernian goodies while you're there.

[Selig]

My own favourite is the 3rd quartet. In fact, inspired by your post, I've been listening to Arditti playing the last couple of quartets this afternoon.

However, my real reason for posting is to ask people a favour. Can anyone let me have - or find me an affordable copy of - Arditti Quartet playing the trio?

There's a flac upload here, stream only I'm afraid:
https://archive.org/details/cd_chamber-music_arnold-schonberg-david-alberman-garth-knox/disc1/01.06.+David+Alberman%2C+Garth+Knox%2C+Rohan+de+Saram+-+Streichtrio%2C+Op.+45+-+Part+I+(mm.+1-51).flac

[Mandryka]

There's a flac upload here, stream only I'm afraid:
https://archive.org/details/cd_chamber-music_arnold-schonberg-david-alberman-garth-knox/disc1/01.06.+David+Alberman%2C+Garth+Knox%2C+Rohan+de+Saram+-+Streichtrio%2C+Op.+45+-+Part+I+(mm.+1-51).flac

Thanks, that will give me a chance to hear it. Why do you say it's flac by the way?

[Selig]

Why do you say it's flac by the way?

Shorthand for "probably high quality" I suppose!

[Mandryka]

Shorthand for "probably high quality" I suppose!

It's certainly listenable - and the performance seems very interesting too. I've downloaded it if anyone wants it.

[Cato]

Mine also, though I'd start with the period just before he broke with tonality, with Chamber Symphony #1 and the 2nd String Quartet. The works he wrote after he codified the 12-tone technique I find less interesting. There is something about that free atonal period, both with Schoenberg and with Webern, where it seemed for a while as if anything were possible. Many of those works were truly breathtaking.

As an exception to what I just wrote: I also find the 4th String Quartet exciting and very interesting despite being a 12-tone work. But I do feel that something was lost when the 12-tone technique became "the law". Even as fine a work as the String Trio doesn't elicit in me the sense of discovery and limitless possibilities that I get from the earlier works.

I have had the same feeling, but keep in mind that, even for Schoenberg, "The Law" could be ignored, whenever it interfered with the logic of the work itself i.e.what his own inner spirit was hearing as "correct."

I remember an essay on Schoenberg's Piano Concerto by Alfred Brendel from 25-30 years ago, where he complained about Schoenberg's many "wrong notes," i.e. notes violating "The Law."  The problem gave him a headache: to correct or not to correct?

I believe in his recordings Brendel followed the score, "wrong notes" and all.


(A side note: if you find the online link to Brendel's essay On Playing Schoenberg's Piano Concerto via The New York Review of Books (Feb. 16 1995) you will NOT find the essay.  Somebody has mistakenly inserted some other essay which does mention Schoenberg now and then, but deals more with Stockhausen and Stravinsky and Schubert!

Supposedly the liner notes for the Philips CD contain this essay.)