Schoenberg's Sheen

[not edward]

Does anyone have recommendations for the opus 14 and opus 48 songs? I don't think I've ever heard either of these sets.

[karlhenning]

At a complete loss here, Edward.

[mjwal]

I keep coming back to the "atonal" masterpieces, today it was Op.16 - has there been a discussion of that here (I get lost in all those meandering discussions)? This work certainly has symphonic qualities, and it hits the nail right on the head when it comes to the cusp between fin de siècle musings & emotings and scientifically planned investigations into the interior world of timbre and rhythm. I have various recordings, ranging from Scherchen to Levine, but the discovery for me was on a German cheapo collection of early Kubelik recordings with in this case the CSO in 1953: it hits you right between the eyes or any other duo you care to think of.
As to the Pierrot Lunaire recording with Steuermann et al: Schoenberg was present at the recording at least part of the time, but he did not direct it.
As far as Opp. 14 and 48 go, I suppose Vanni/Gould on Sony is the most obvious resource for a large number of songs including these. I have never warmed much to the vocal settings with piano - now Op.22 is something else!

[karlhenning]

From notes reprinted in the Naxos liner notes:

Realising that a work of 38 minutes in atonal idiom for five winds might be less audience-friendly than any of his music heretofore, Schoenberg sought to beguile his masterpiece with a display of instrumental virtuosity that surpassed anything even he had ever attempted.  Only now, a half-century after the première, has the piece become playable at the tempos Schoenberg requires.  The wind-instrument players of his time had to be conducted (Webern rehearsed and conducted it in the early years) and managed to get through it in about an hour.  Composed between 21st April and 26th July, the first performance, by members of the Vienna Philharmonic, took place in that city, conducted by Schoenberg's son-in-law, Felix Greissle, on 13th September, 1924, Schoenberg's fiftieth birthday.  It lasted one hour.

[karlhenning]

Very informative, but I am surprised at such sloppy writing from someone as historically attached to literature-friendly composers as Craft! Beguile cannot be the right word there.  And the introductory subordinate clause Composed between 21st April and 26th July modifies the composition itself, not the subject of the main clause, the first performance.

[mjwal]

Karl, I agree with you about the floating participial (not a clause) phrase, but his use of "beguile" is in fact very literary indeed: while Collins Dic. gives the usual senses, the Shorter Oxford mentions, as sense 5, "to divert attention in some pleasant way from" and cites "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" - thus the masterpiece in its atonal complexity is "beguiled", i.e. one's attention is diverted from it by the display of instrumental virtuosity.

[karlhenning]

Thanks!

[Scarpia]

Karl, I agree with you about the floating participial (not a clause) phrase, but his use of "beguile" is in fact very literary indeed: while Collins Dic. gives the usual senses, the Shorter Oxford mentions, as sense 5, "to divert attention in some pleasant way from" and cites "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" - thus the masterpiece in its atonal complexity is "beguiled", i.e. one's attention is diverted from it by the display of instrumental virtuosity.

It's still wrong.  In the example "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" it is the cares that are beguiled, not the sport.  in Craft's quote " Schoenberg sought to beguile his masterpiece with a display of instrumental virtuosity" beguile is applied to the "masterpiece."  Schoenberg can beguile his listeners, or beguile our cares, but he can't beguile the piece of music he is writing, unless this is a really far fetched metaphor in which he imagines that the piece of music itself is upset and needs to be beguiled.  If that's the case, I guess it's not wrong, just really bad writing, IMO.

[karlhenning]

[ I appreciate my miscalling the participial phrase a clause being pointed out. Only fair. ]

I should go straight back and listen to the Wind Quintet again . . . be a good palate-clearer in the midst of all the wonderful Martinů.

[mjwal]

It's still wrong.  In the example "By sports like these are all their cares beguil'd" it is the cares that are beguiled, not the sport.  in Craft's quote " Schoenberg sought to beguile his masterpiece with a display of instrumental virtuosity" beguile is applied to the "masterpiece."  Schoenberg can beguile his listeners, or beguile our cares, but he can't beguile the piece of music he is writing, unless this is a really far fetched metaphor in which he imagines that the piece of music itself is upset and needs to be beguiled.  If that's the case, I guess it's not wrong, just really bad writing, IMO.
Scarpia,  it's hardly worth arguing about, but my post made clear that it is the masterpiece being beguiled in the sense of "attention being diverted from" - i.e. the listener's  attention is diverted from the masterpiece (in its quasi-minatory serial gestalt) to its instrumentally beguiling blandishments, just as such sports pleasantly draw people's attention from their cares. I know it is counter-intuitive, but such as Craft are literary to a fare-thee-well and Oxford Dictionary junkies...

[karlhenning]

Has anyone in addition to papy heard Steuermann's arrangement of the Opus 4 for piano trio?  (Or is it piano quartet?)

[Luke]

Yes, I have it....and I rather like it; the piano adds a certian layer of objectivity to the sound which I quite like, if I can put it like that. And of course Steuermann's version is to be understood as coming from a specific context - the Second Viennese School in the early 20th century - in which good-quality arrangements played a central role (so many of these pieces exist in more than one version). It doesn't supplant the original version(s), of course, but it makes for an interesting and refreshing change.

[karlhenning]

Molto bene, grazie!

[not edward]

This might be an interesting addition to the Schoenberg discography:



http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557533

[karlhenning]

With Fred Sherry, it's got to be good.

[not edward]

With Fred Sherry, it's got to be good.

Rolf Schulte in the Phantasy is a nice bonus, too. I've been impressed with his recordings of both Schoenberg and Carter's violin concerti.

[CaramelJones]

This might be an interesting addition to the Schoenberg discography:



http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557533

It's a beautiful disc.  Probably better than the old Juilliard stuff imho.

Anyone afraid Schoenberg might put them to sleep need not fear.

Their earlier volume to this precedes the Verklarte Nacht (No.4 SQ) and is very plaintive and beautiful in its own way - way more accessible (No.2 SQ).

[karlhenning]

I have to admit that, not being able to justify spending £70 on that Schoenberg Quartet set with all the arrangements included, I bought it as mp3 downloads for just 13....now listening to the arrangement of the Wind Quintet. Heretical to say it, I know, but i prefer it. For all manner of reasons, perhaps easily imaginable ones. I think the wind version works better as an idea, on paper, than in reality, perhaps. The ear gets tired by the relative stridency. But also, the effect of all those different instrumental timbres tends to draw the ear - we notice that which is different - and commensurately, to draw it away from what the instruments share - that is, the musical material itself, the imitations and so on which are at the heart of the piece.

Liking this very much.

£70 is certainly awfully rich;  I was incredibly lucky to find a decent copy for $45 (ca. £28) . . . and I agree, very likeable!

[karlhenning]

I'm listening to the wind quintet at the moment for the first time in quiet a while, and what you say makes a lot of sense. What's the arrangement scored for?

Theonly information I have is that which comes with the track names on the mp3, but that says string quintet. I must admit I wasn't listening with an ear to determine whether it is two-viola or two-cello - the thing is too fast moving, and I guess there could be some part swappage at times too - but it must be the latter, as both horn and bassoon parts go below the viola register, occasionally at the same time (I'm looking at the score of the wind version as I listen).

I've got the liner booklet, which is substantial . . . and yet (I've looked into it only cursorily as yet) it was not immediately apparent whether it's a viola quintet or cello quintet.  I am apt to suspect viola, but I'll try to get a firmer idea tomorrow . . . .

[snyprrr]

In an effort to confront the Death in Venice-type culture rot of the time, I am starting afresh with the Second Viennese School, and their early works.

I'm in the closet,...looking,...haha,...oh yes, just look for the pile of DG, haha! All Karajan, all the time, haha!

Funny thing, how Schoenberg/Berg/Webern, COMBINED, have a very very small output by comparison to, most?, composers. What do you think?

I'm listening to Verklarte Nacht/ Karajan right now. Yes, "overheated" is the word that comes to mind. It's ALMOST the feeling I've been seeking, that overheated greenhouse in it's almost grotesque splendour,... where the one plant inexplicably takes on the form of a woman, driving the fevered husband/scientist mad....

oh, this is good!, haha,...my new Opera!,...you want it?

However, I'm still looking for more putrefied remains that what I'm finding in Nacht (there's still too much life left in the body). S/B/W, it seems to me, are still struggling to KILL the beast (Western Civ 101),....whereas, perhaps, the French (Debussy, Caplet, Ravel,...y'know, those "devilworshippers", Priory of Sion, blahblah), the French perhaps are having sex with the body!... or, is that Szymanowski?, haha

Is all that I'm looking for simply contained in Pierrot? Is that the most,... the best example of total musical "degeneracy", where the vocals and the music, both together, combine in atonal hallucinations of death and the macabre (THAT's the word I've been looking for!)?



Nacht (almost over) seems tortured, yet, ultimately sounds like the uber-TonePoem, with the big release. Last night I was listening to Pelleas, which is a lot more sumptuous....

oy, getting braindrain ,...sleepy,...must,...log,...off,....ZZZzzzzz....Spock!.....