Schoenberg's Sheen

[karlhenning]

Funny thing, how Schoenberg/Berg/Webern, COMBINED, have a very very small output by comparison to, most?, composers. What do you think?

I think that this is a flawed comparison.  That is, that there it is problematic in the first place to compare music & musicians from different eras.  THe combined output is very small compared to Telemann; so what?  Tallis's output is small compared to Telemann's . . . and from this senator's standpoint, Tallis was ten times the artist that Telemann was.

The volume of Schoenberg's oeuvre (if we're measuring volume by duration of playing time, itself a debatable method) is probably somewhat greater than either Debussy's or Ravel's (not that this maps onto any value judgement), and probably at about half of Stravinsky's (not that this maps onto any value judgement, either).

[Sergeant Rock]

Is all that I'm looking for simply contained in Pierrot? Is that the most,... the best example of total musical "degeneracy", where the vocals and the music, both together, combine in atonal hallucinations of death and the macabre (THAT's the word I've been looking for!)?

For the kind of cultural degeneracy you're talking about (I think )...that macabre degeneracy, music literally dancing on a corpse, my vote goes to Strauss's Salome. But I assume you've already considered, and rejected, that. Gurrelieder would work to if it were not for that optimistic sunrise finale. Have you heard Mahler's Das Klagende Lied?

Sarge

[snyprrr]

I think that this is a flawed comparison.  That is, that there it is problematic in the first place to compare music & musicians from different eras.  THe combined output is very small compared to Telemann; so what?  Tallis's output is small compared to Telemann's . . . and from this senator's standpoint, Tallis was ten times the artist that Telemann was.

The volume of Schoenberg's oeuvre (if we're measuring volume by duration of playing time, itself a debatable method) is probably somewhat greater than either Debussy's or Ravel's (not that this maps onto any value judgement), and probably at about half of Stravinsky's (not that this maps onto any value judgement, either).

I was just noting the relatively concentrated feeling of these three. Even though there aren't that many pieces, per se, those pieces are all chock full to the brim with information, more so than with others , perhaps (Martinu instead of Telemann, perhaps?). No, I wasn't making a value judgment,...just noting, for instance, that, all three of them combined come up with only one 80min cd for piano music,...that both Webern and Berg can be collected into neat little boxes (W more so).

Hey, I was just saying that their output was,...mmm,...."cute"! haha

[snyprrr]

For the kind of cultural degeneracy you're talking about (I think )...that macabre degeneracy, music literally dancing on a corpse, my vote goes to Strauss's Salome. But I assume you've already considered, and rejected, that. Gurrelieder would work to if it were not for that optimistic sunrise finale. Have you heard Mahler's Das Klagende Lied?

Sarge

So far, as I've been going through the SecVenSch, the Webern Op.1 Passacaglia seems to come closest to what I was thinking, though, still, there is too much life/anger/resistance left. There ARE some astonishing sections of this piece that really sound uber-Modern to me. If this Op.1 had been written as a TonePoem on the Fall of Usher, then I think....

I'm starting to think that Poe/Baubelaire is the key. And, I'm wondering who is more "morbid" in their culture: the Germans or the French.



I don't know why I'm having such a hard time accepting Mahler/Strauss as the epitome of what I'm thinking about.

Maybe something will clarify: is anyone familiar with Japanese Horror Art, the kind where soldiers are licking the gaping wound of a cadaver, or wot not? The Japanese seem to have a very creepy underbelly. I also hear that the Romanians have a very macabre sense of humor (Ligeti).

Also, the idea of the American Gothic seems to embody most of what I'm thinking about. Ives might be the composer I would lift up here, except that I think his Christian faith keeps him  from being morbid.

Some of Cowell's early, ultra dissonant pieces (Quartet Romantic) have that Southern Gothic sound, very close to what I'm think: lots of chromatic up and down, like the cadaver gases. Also, Denisov specializes in this sound of "ennui".

Perhaps the composer I'm looking for was either a Morphine addict, or liked the Absinthe?

Syphilis to the rescue!

[snyprrr]

So far, SQ No.2 is coming closest to what I was thinking.

[snyprrr]

You should see the look on my face ( ) after ordering my second installment (Lunaire) of the Atherton chamber cycle. I am telling myself that this does it for Schoenberg (I've been wrong before). I should now have plenty of ammo to beat him over the head with!

Jus kidding,... but seriously.

Currently, my Schoenberg runs as such:

DG/Karajan (2)
DG violin/piano concertos
DG/Abbado (Warsaw)
DG/Abbado (Chamber No.1)
DG (Napoleon)
DG/Pollini piano
DG/Boulez PLunaire

DG/Kremerata (String Trio, Phantasy)

SQs 1-4/Arditti SQ
SQs 2-4/Liepziger SQ
SQ No.1/Berner SQ (Koch)

Decca/Atherton (Wind Quintet, Suite)
Decca/Atherton (PL, Serenade, Brigade)

Decca/ "Schoenberg in Hollywood" (Chamber No.2, Suite, band piece)



The crossed out ones I don't have, but, that would be it for the non-vocal, no?

I just heard the Kolisch and Arditti and LaSalle in SQ No.4 (to compare to Liepzigers), and the Ardittis come out waaay ahead, distinguishing themselves nicely in the harmonics section of the first mvmt. It's hard to get a cheap copy of that one!

I also heard the fragments of SQ No.5 (1949)! Tantalizingly typical of what would be coming out of the American Universities in the next 20yeasts. Amazing how some scribbled notes translate into such strange sounds. Poor, misunderstood Arnie.

[snyprrr]

So I got the Atherton Pierrot, with Mary Thomas, who is quite "ugly" (I thought), bringing out a visceral madness to the proceedings, reminding me slightly of that Eastern European dinginess that leads to the film Hostel (yuk, right?). This band could be playing in thaaat town, haha.

Right now I'll just say that I'm just not that hip on this ghoulish cabaret (I probably would need DeGaetani to sweeten it up for me). I think it just proves to me that Schoenberg's music can only lead to mad states of mind, haha.

The Serenade Op.24, however, may be my fav Arnie piece now. The sensation of being at a polite garden party of ghouls saturates this score. It's just hilarious to me to hear this skeletal sounding, drooling and burbling band playing Mozart through some Frankensteinian process of bringing the dead back. Music for ghouls to dance by, haha.

I can so hear Arnie slaving over his baby, making sure everything is just so. But it just cracks me up how he seems to start everything off with that "grumpy walking tempo", like he's always stuck in a macabre allegretto. But, like I said, the way he puts tones together, it's just gonna end up sounding creepy anyway.

That's why I think this Serenade is the perfect Arnie, because it so perfectly represents the emotions of his system, when applied to such a perfectly sarcastic instrumentation. But I don't know how how this type of music could ever represent anything "normal". It does seem to be relegates to the psychological underworld of dreams and phantoms, and horrors and war, and fevers and worry (oh, and not to mention bitterness! ).

I can enjoy Arnie's music for what it is and how it feels, but I'm starting to have no time for Arnie the man (and his ideas). I've been listening to quite a concentrate of Arnie in the last few days, and, it's just to sunny, summery, and nice out! The Serenade and Wind Quintet are the only things of his I can listen to in the daytime, haha!

I just find his emotional palette limited (especially in light of his claims and such). Is that fair?

[karlhenning]

. . . I just find his emotional palette limited (especially in light of his claims and such). Is that fair?

Your parenthesis is enigmatical.  But, no, I don't find his music emotionally "limited," any more than (say) Bach's.

[karlhenning]

And as I revisit the quartets, I am yet more puzzled at your finding the emotional range "limited."

But then, I should never have characterized the Serenade, Opus 24 as "music for ghouls to dance by"; I don't hear it that way at all, at all.

[mjwal]

Schoenberg is one of my very favourite composers, particularly (off the top of my head) Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, Op.9 and Die glückliche Hand, but I have not responded quite so strongly to the String Quartets - until I heard the 4th played by the Wihan Qt (Arcodiva + Pfitzner #2), a beautifully translucent, magical recording. The greatest of his string quartets, however, as I think Hans Keller used to say, is his String Trio, for me the greatest musical work of the mid-century. The Juilliards are very good at this, and so are Kremer, V.& C.Hagen (DG) in better sound, which is important in Sch., if we are to get over that "austere/crabbed" image. The latter CD is an invaluable compilation, by the way, including Mahler's piano quartet movement, and shorter pieces by Berg and Webern.

[snyprrr]

And as I revisit the quartets, I am yet more puzzled at your finding the emotional range "limited."

But then, I should never have characterized the Serenade, Opus 24 as "music for ghouls to dance by"; I don't hear it that way at all, at all.

But, didn't AS say himself that all Modern Music should be played at night? I mean, has he not limited himself through his system? Especially after the conversion, I find all his music ill at ease. I mean, come on, you're gonna tell me that the serial music of Arnold Schoenberg doesn't,... mostly,... express hightened states of agitation and unease and general Munch-ness, made even the more creepy by couching the extreme psychological conditions (12 tones !,...no center!) in (especially in SQs 3-4) the "form" of Mozart.

You know how SQs 3-4 are pretty well documented to be "learnt" from Mozart (like Toch), since AS was trying to show everyone how his stuff wasn't so alien after all. Tell me you know what I'm talking about here, or I'll have to find the liner notes, haha!

So, basically, generally what I "accuse" AS of is putting New Wine into Old Kegs/Forms. Obviously, by the String Trio, he had corrected the form to more suit the New Path. No?

I mean, I like SQ No.4 just fine, right?, but as a Mozart SQ it's an abomination. He has beaten a Mozat/Classical melodic line into a twelve step (unheard of!) melody, and yet, basically, he keeps a lot of the other compositional considerations firmly rooted in the 18th century. New Wine into Old Skins. It's not meant to work (you shouldn't fool with Mother Nature!!), and, IMHO!, haha, the only way it does work is a Mozatean drama taken to its Grand Guignal "slouching towards the graveyard" inevitable conclusion.

Please, let's take SQ No.4. Where's the maestoso Heroicism? Sustained tenderness and grace? Joy?

Does not AS rather seem to prefer anger, bitterness, strident declaring, and sometimes even hectoring preachiness? As isn't the guy who wrote The Sound of Music, after all!

I think I need to repeat that we're talking about the (arguably) Baddest Bad Boy that there ever was, right? This is the Arnold Schoenberg that makes my mom's face turn sour,... my mom the sweet little old lady who likes "nice" music (I'm sure you know her, haha!), who KNOWS,.... she, and people like her KNOW that Schoenberg writes music expressing the more stressful states of man's consciousness, rather than the sweet strains of a Strauss waltz (now THAT's music, she might say).

Even if you find me an example of "happy" AS (and please,  I will need one), I will surely find something "wrong" with it, haha! I'll admit that SQ No.2 starts off,...maaaybe in a Dvorakian vein, but, I mean, come on. And, don't count the early SQ in D,... just not fair.

I mean, 12 tone music as taught by AS, waaaas futuristic, in that there was no way he could have known that his music was MADE, was MEANT, to depict giant taratulas in '50s sci-fi movies, was MADE to depict the most shocking scenes in the most shocking movies, and, and,...

And, even I, when I was young, remember saying of AS's music, that it sounded like "horror movie music".



So, my point was, was that AS limited himself, and, I thought we all knew that he limited himself by the utilization of his system,... that that was the point of Arnold Schoenberg, The Man Who Killed Music.

You certainly wouldn't mistake him for Mozart!

And yes, I'm sorry, but it HAS to be that obvious for the point to be made (since, he himself uses Mozart to point to).



btw- listen to the last couple of minutes of the finale to the SQ No.4. Now thaaat's a cool ending, huh?

[karlhenning]

But, didn't AS say himself that all Modern Music should be played at night? I mean, has he not limited himself through his system? Especially after the conversion, I find all his music ill at ease. I mean, come on, you're gonna tell me that the serial music of Arnold Schoenberg doesn't,... mostly,... express hightened states of agitation and unease and general Munch-ness, made even the more creepy by couching the extreme psychological conditions (12 tones !,...no center!) in (especially in SQs 3-4) the "form" of Mozart.

"Ill at ease," no (not as a general characteristic of his work). An energy, a kind of restlessness, sure.  Not intrinsically "disturbing," no.

Is that a "limitation" Schoenberg "imposed" upon himself by his 'system'?  I hardly think so.  If anything, Webern "applied" the 'system' even more severely, and Webern's is a music of arresting repose.  So I do not find this at all any question of an "emotional limitation" supposedly inheren to the 'system';  I think it's a matter of the composer's voice — again, though, I don't think there is anything necessarily "creepy" about it.

[snyprrr]

Your parenthesis is enigmatical.  But, no, I don't find his music emotionally "limited," any more than (say) Bach's.

If anything, Webern "applied" the 'system' even more severely, and Webern's is a music of arresting repose.

Bach,...yes, I know what you're saying,... Bach is just so above it all that there is that cool "repose", and inevitability,... as if God Himself is dictating perfection. Perhaps the emotions expressed in Bach are not really "human" emotions, but the emotions of angels?

I know, I'm just being difficult.

And yes, I see that same repose in Webern. Perhaps the point is is that Bach and Webern pushed their systems to the utmost frontier, cutting off all the "human", "dirty" things out of their music, whereas people like Mahler seem to keep the imperfections as indicative of including the "whole" world. Does Schoenberg "keep" the imperfections, or does he discard them?

I just do not really hear that "helige" repose in Schoenberg (except,...try that ending of SQ No.4). I suppose that ultimately I am trying to link Schoenberg's general crotchety attitude (Atheism?) to his generally,... I'll use your word, "restless", music.

And, I'm also trying to get the argument away from people like you and me (people who will actually look into things (music) that they might at first find unpleasant), and just bringing Aunt Martha into the mix. The common man.

I mean, you do agree that the Aunt Marthas of the world have given Arnie the moniker of The man Who killed Music, right? To the general, untutored ear, Arnie's music might sound like Mozart on LSD (being that he still uses a lot of 18th century tools: four mvmts in  the corresponding tempos (sonata, song, scherzo, finale), Mozartean procedures), no?

Do you not have an Aunt Martha?

I mean, what does Arnie communicate to the common man? What would most any "normal" (Mom!) listener come away with after hearing,...mmm, the Violin Concerto (just pick some particularly thorny AS) or Op.11 piano pieces?

We all know that Arnie IS the man who doesn't care what "you" think, isn't he? I know that Babbitt is the guy who said it, but, he got it from Arnie, didn't he?



I would like to know what music you would describe as macabre, or, "creepy, or,...music that makes you feel dirty (Christina Aguilera notwithstanding!)? For me, it's John Zorn,... but, half of that is the fact that I know some of the creepy stuff he's into.

I just think most, again, "normal" listeners might characterize Mozart's g minor symphony as "restless", but would have a much more visceral reaction to AS, as in they might actually be mad at you for making them listen to him.

Come on, try the Arnie test with your Mother-in-Law, or, a Teenager, or, better yet, a young child ("out of the mouths of babes").

Yes, that's it. Play Arnie for an "innocent" young child, and I will stand by their judgment! There's the perfect music critic!

So there!



I dedicate this Post to the Aunt Marthas of the world!

[karlhenning]

I know, I'm just being difficult.

Not a bit of it; I'm enjoying the discussion. I do not fail to enjoy a discussion, just because the other chap & I do not agree!

More later . . . I've got to get back to Tempus fungus.

[snyprrr]

Smashing! I'll get more ammo!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Perhaps the emotions expressed in Bach are not really "human" emotions, but the emotions of angels?

I like this line so much that I have selected it as my tagline 

And yes, I see that same repose in Webern. Perhaps the point is is that Bach and Webern pushed their systems to the utmost frontier, cutting off all the "human", "dirty" things out of their music, whereas people like Mahler seem to keep the imperfections as indicative of including the "whole" world. Does Schoenberg "keep" the imperfections, or does he discard them?

Sch. (heavily influenced by Mahler as he was) keeps the imperfections - there are any number of "human" and "dirty" elements in his work. How can you compose to a text like Pierrot Lunaire or Erwartung without numerous dirty and creepy elements? It's nightmarish stuff 

I am one of those weird people who likes Arnie's music because it's nightmarish, outlandish and creepy! Great stuff!!

[mjwal]

I agree with you, Velimir - and there is nothing more "human" and "dirty" than the scene from the concentration camp in Ein Überlebender aus Warschau or the scene of the Golden Calf from Moses und Aron ; on the other hand, I find the Violin Concerto - ironically characterised by snypyrrr as more or less abnormal and offensive to the "normal" ear (whatever that might mean, and since when were the Aunt Marthas or Constable Plods ever interested in music as an art form AT ALL??) - a mind-bending view of a mental reality transcending "real life" in the sense of  neighbour gossip over endless cups of tea; does the theorist of quantum physics have to justify his ideas to ignorant scientific illiterates? And as to the (one hopes) satirically conceived idea of a Bach out of touch with the "human" "dirty" elements of life, I am thoroughly nonplussed: even a satirist must take account of fact, to a certain extent. The human emotions displayed in the cantatas and passions, the quodlibet in the Goldberg-Variationen ("Denen Liebhabern zur Gemüths-Ergetzung verfertiget" doesn't sound like unworldly abstraction), the omnipresent dance forms and exploration of instrumental sonorities in for instance the cello suites - these are not part of "the whole world"? As my grandmother would have said, stuff and nonsense.

[karlhenning]

I agree with you, Velimir - and there is nothing more "human" and "dirty" than the scene from the concentration camp in Ein Überlebender aus Warschau . . . .

But, of course, it isn't just the humanity and the dirt, even in that piece.  There are many sublime moments in the literature, but there is (I think) a unique character to the sublime sunburst of the men's chorus breaking out with the Sch'ma Yisroel in A Survivor.

[mjwal]

Sublime, yes, but a very human affirmation of hopeful solidarity, which doesn't change the fact that "tout ça finira très mal". I didn't say anything was "just" anything, though.

[snyprrr]

I'm trading out the Leipzigers for the Ardittis. Hands down, the Ardittis attack 3-4 like no other, opening No.3 without hesitating, and giving No.4 tonal shadings overlooked by others. This is the keeper.

Timings for No.3/I. Moderato are the same (8:36) for both, but the Ardittis plow ahead with a forward momentum missing in the Leipziger's.


This Arditti set is becoming quite rare. huh