Schoenberg's Sheen

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 07:35:28 AM

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EigenUser

Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2014, 11:01:58 AM
I like it about as well, but it is something a bit different.  The second movement of the Op.38 is quite a phlegmatic affair, compared to the barnstorming Op.9.

Quote from: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 12:14:56 PM
You might like Adams's CS.
Fwiw I like AS 1 more than AS 2.
Thanks for the info guys! I'll keep the Adams CS on my radar.

So far I've heard
-"Five Pieces for Orchestra" -- left me unimpressed (sorry John :(), though the first one is kind of cool and gets stuck in my head. I'll keep coming back to it.
-"A Survivor from Warsaw" -- powerful and enjoyable, but not something I'd tune in to.
-"Piano Concerto" -- a little bit difficult to follow on first listen, but intriguing. Clearly 12-tone. I'll need to give it at least another listen before I can decide.
-"Verklarte Nacht" -- love it.
-"Chamber Symphony No. 1" -- favorite so far. I feel like this is the romantic idiom I've been looking for my whole (musical) life. That's how I felt about "VN" until I heard the "CS1"

Any other recommendations for orchestral works? The violin concerto? P&M? M&A? V4O? "Guerrelieder" is way too long for me and I suspect it of being too Mahlerian for me to really get in to. I'll try it eventually, in small pieces. And I've heard that the V4O is one of his thornier works. Any Schoenberg fans care to elaborate on these? Not to sound lazy (you know I'd be thrilled to help someone exploring Ligeti ;)).
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on May 17, 2014, 12:47:55 PM
Thanks for the info guys! I'll keep the Adams CS on my radar.

So far I've heard
-"Five Pieces for Orchestra" -- left me unimpressed (sorry John :(), though the first one is kind of cool and gets stuck in my head. I'll keep coming back to it.
-"A Survivor from Warsaw" -- powerful and enjoyable, but not something I'd tune in to.
-"Piano Concerto" -- a little bit difficult to follow on first listen, but intriguing. Clearly 12-tone. I'll need to give it at least another listen before I can decide.
-"Verklarte Nacht" -- love it.
-"Chamber Symphony No. 1" -- favorite so far. I feel like this is the romantic idiom I've been looking for my whole (musical) life. That's how I felt about "VN" until I heard the "CS1"

Any other recommendations for orchestral works? The violin concerto? P&M? M&A? V4O? "Guerrelieder" is way too long for me and I suspect it of being too Mahlerian for me to really get in to. I'll try it eventually, in small pieces. And I've heard that the V4O is one of his thornier works. Any Schoenberg fans care to elaborate on these? Not to sound lazy (you know I'd be thrilled to help someone exploring Ligeti ;)).
Gurrelieder for sure. It seems made for you!
It is gob smackingly enormous in every way. It is one giant cloud of post Tristan chromaticism. It is dull dull dull, and you like Ligeti's cello concerto.  >:D  :laugh:

Seriously if you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go. (Better though is to look into Frank Martin, or Martinu. Just sayin'. )

EigenUser

Quote from: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 01:11:28 PM
Gurrelieder for sure. It seems made for you!
It is gob smackingly enormous in every way. It is one giant cloud of post Tristan chromaticism. It is dull dull dull, and you like Ligeti's cello concerto.  >:D  :laugh:

Seriously if you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go. (Better though is to look into Frank Martin, or Martinu. Just sayin'. )
Actually, I really dislike Ligeti's cello concerto... And how I've tried!

The problem with large orchestral works is that they are often long, which makes sense from a practical point of view. What's the point of getting together hundreds of musicians just for 20 minutes?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

snyprrr

Quote from: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 01:11:28 PM
you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go.

hut hut

EigenUser

Quote from: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 01:11:28 PM
Gurrelieder for sure. It seems made for you!
It is gob smackingly enormous in every way. It is one giant cloud of post Tristan chromaticism. It is dull dull dull, and you like Ligeti's cello concerto.  >:D  :laugh:

Seriously if you are looking for AS like the CS then the PC and the SQs are the way to go. (Better though is to look into Frank Martin, or Martinu. Just sayin'. )
Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2014, 04:23:15 PM
hut hut

I'll definitely re-listen to the PC. I listened to part of the 4th SQ and liked it alright...

I'm on my second listen of CS2 and I see what Karl means. It definitely isn't as emotionally-surcharged as the first. Still enjoyable, though.

What about P&M? Or the variations?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Sergeant Rock

the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

EigenUser

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 07:20:27 AM
Way too long for you. Avoid.

Sarge
Lol, I'm getting a reputation here ;D.

Quote from: James on May 18, 2014, 08:57:21 AM
I love the 3rd one (Summer Morning by a Lake: Chord-Colors) .. one of the greatest, hard not to appreciate the beautiful harmony here.
Thanks. I'll try and pay attention to this when I hear it next.

One thing I like about the first piece is what Simon Rattle calls "obsessive repetition" (if I recall correctly). Schoenberg divides the cello section so that half the cellists pluck notes and the other half bow the same notes which creates a cool "bell-tone" effect. You guys probably know what I'm talking about, but I'll post it. See 0:40 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/N2ZMnLENKVs
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Cato

Pelleas und Melisande is one of the great spiritual exercises of all time!

If you value your soul at all, do not kiss the worms until you have heard it!   ???
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Ken B

Quote from: Cato on May 19, 2014, 05:21:38 AM
Pelleas und Melisande is one of the great spiritual exercises of all time!

If you value your soul at all, do not kiss the worms until you have heard it!   ???
I confess I have heard it only once. On my todo list "Debussy" and "French opera" are not an encouraging combination.  :) ::)

EigenUser

Quote from: Ken B on May 19, 2014, 05:52:59 AM
I confess I have heard it only once. On my todo list "Debussy" and "French opera" are not an encouraging combination.  :) ::)
No, this is Schoenberg's "Pelleas und Melisande", not Debussy's "Pelleas et Melisande" (or Faure's, for that matter).
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 06:16:00 AM
No, this is Schoenberg's "Pelleas und Melisande", not Debussy's "Pelleas et Melisande" (or Faure's, for that matter).
Oh. Forget it. Too long for you.
>:D

Actually well worth a listen but might not be your thing.

Faure's is a bit dull. Like Debussy his chamber and piano music is bteter than his orchestral.

Mirror Image

Quote from: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 03:25:06 AM

One thing I like about the first piece is what Simon Rattle calls "obsessive repetition" (if I recall correctly). Schoenberg divides the cello section so that half the cellists pluck notes and the other half bow the same notes which creates a cool "bell-tone" effect. You guys probably know what I'm talking about, but I'll post it. See 0:40 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/N2ZMnLENKVs

Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written!!! That's how much I love it. I love everything about it. I think it encapsulates everything I like about Schoenberg: the distortion, the grotesque, the bizarre, the eeriness, and the alternate reality. This work, within it's short duration, manages the full gamut of all these things.

Cato

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2014, 07:18:37 AM
Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written!!! That's how much I love it. I love everything about it. I think it encapsulates everything I like about Schoenberg: the distortion, the grotesque, the bizarre, the eeriness, and the alternate reality. This work, within it's short duration, manages the full gamut of all these things.

Amen!   0:)

And yes, Pelleas und Melisande is a tone-poem which describes in an amazing way the psychology of the characters and the atmosphere of the play in c. 40 minutes, depending on the conductor.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

not edward

You forgot Poland Sibelius.

Which reminds me of this pair of discs with the perennially underrated Serge Baudo conducting:

[asin]B000LV6CM8[/asin]
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Cato

Quote from: edward on May 19, 2014, 07:40:00 AM
You forgot Poland Sibelius.

Which reminds me of this pair of discs with the perennially underrated Serge Baudo conducting:

[asin]B000LV6CM8[/asin]

Those were the good old days, when classical recording companies had some imagination!  There was a similar grouping on Sony with Zubin Mehta, but without the Debussy.

One of my favorites, if you can find it:

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Marc

Quote from: edward on May 19, 2014, 07:40:00 AM
You forgot Poland Sibelius.

Which reminds me of this pair of discs with the perennially underrated Serge Baudo conducting:

[asin]B000LV6CM8[/asin]

Yes!
Recommended.

(My tuppence worth.)

Karl Henning

In honor of the late Malcolm MacDonald, I was poking around his richly rewarding book on Schoenberg, and found again this discussion of the Act (III) left un-set:

Quote from: Malcolm MacDonaldOn the whole, one does not regret that this Act was never set to music:  unlike the rest of the libretto, it seems to lack dramatic conviction.  There is no explanation of how Moses has gained the upper hand, nor why his arguments should triumph now when they failed before.  It reads just a little like the wish-fulfilment of a man who really knew that Aaron, whether right or wrong, inevitably gets the better of the arguments in this life.  And indeed as Schoenberg depicts him in music Aaron, for all his pliancy and shallowness, is not an unimpressive character:  he has quick wit, acts with decision, and is an artist with words.  The opera, in truth, is as much about the artist as the religious man—the struggle, and the paradox, involved in trying to give outward expression to any inner vision.  Schoenberg had to have something of Aaron in his own makeup to attempt the opera—for is not Moses und Aron itself an 'image' such as Moses would condemn—an 'image' which by its very existence betrays the idea it tries to convey?  If so, its incompleteness saves it:  for the final revelation of Moses' triumph and unity with God is left unexpressed, and the torso that we have portrays the essence of the graspable, believable, human situation.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mandryka

I've been listening to Gould play the op 25 suite. There are three recordings at least, the live ones have more conventional tempos but all use lots and lots of expressive rubato.

And that leads to my point - is this music expressionist? Is it about expressing very strong emotions by unconventional means? Or is it something else?

I ask because although there are lots of excellent performances of the op 25 suite in terms of execution, Pollini, Chen, Henck etc are all emotionally dry compared to Gould. They're straighter rubato-wise. As if they don't see the music as particularly expressionist.

Another performer who seems particularly expressive and free in this suite is Peter Hill.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Karl Henning

Yes!  Hill is mighty good here.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

The combination of recent discussion of the piece, and my at last organizing two binsful of CD liner notes, motivated me to bring forth the following liner notes.  This is from the Sony CD of the sextet version played by the Juilliard Quartet with Walter Trampler and Yo-Yo Ma:

Quote"... the depiction of musical ideas by a musical poet, a musical thinker ..." On Schoenberg's Op.4 and Op.45
Susanne Rode (tr. Stewart Spencer)

At first sight there appears to be nothing in common between Verklärte Nacht (Transfigured Night), the twenty-five-year-old Schoenberg's late Romantic and lyrical op. 4 string sextet and his String Trio, op. 45, which is one of the most uncompromisingly dodecaphonic works of the composer's later years.  Indeed, they seem to issue from totally antithetical worlds.  The sextet was written during a summer holiday which Schoenberg spent with Alexander von Zemlinsky in Payerbach in 1899, whereas the trio dates from the time of Schoenberg's American exile, when he had just recovered from a near-fatal heart attack and was still haunted by the knowledge of having been so close to death.  But the contrast between the works indicates more than merely a difference in attendant biographical circumstances.

Verklärte Nacht sums up the feelings of fin-de-siècle Vienna, the product of a phse of exuberant excess in which Schoenberg took his cue from Detlev von Liliencron, Hugo von Hoffmansthal and Richard Dehmel – writers whom he later described as "the 'Zeitgeist's' foremost representatives in lyric poetry" – and, fired by Zemlinsky, modelled himself on Wagner's music with its chromaticism and colour.  The String Trio, by contrast, dates from a time when Schoenberg had recovered his own individual expressive urge and highly personal musical language.  Immediately after moving to America, in what must have been the worst weeks of his life, Schoenberg had seriously considered giving up composing.  When he did start writing again, it was with a curious ambivalence, composing both tonal works that harked back to traditional structural models and, at the same time, dodecaphonic pieces extremely advanced in terms of their structure, form and expression.  Therefore Verklärte Nacht and the String Trio are culminating points within the composer's œuvre.

Their reception history is essentially marked by the same sense of opposition, with Verklärte Nacht bearing the palm as Schoenberg's most widely played work.  The composer soon grew weary of repeatedly being asked why he had not continued to compose in the same style.  Somewhat provocatively, he used to reply that he was "not chosen" to go on "in the style" of Verklärte Nacht but that, basically, he was still writing exactly the same sort of music "as at the very beginning."  The only difference, he went on, was that his later works were better, "more concentrated, more mature."  In making the claim, Schoenberg draws a parallel between the two works and, at the same time, offers an implicit pointer to the way in which they should be interpreted.  Within the field of tension created by emotional expression and structure (a field of tension which remains valid for the whole of his œuvre), it is immediacy of expression which occupies the forefront of attention in Verklärte Nacht, while the String Trio is more concerned with structure.  In neither case, however, is the antinomial opposite robbed of its significance.

When Richard Dehmel's collection of poems, Weib und Welt, was published in 1896, it immediately prompted widely differing reactions, which some readers dismissing it out of hand, while others – Schoenberg included – greeted the volume with immense enthusiasm.  Indeed, the appearance of the anthology was shortly followed by a Dehmel phase in Schoenberg's lieder output.  Years later he wrote an appreciative letter to the poet, acknowledging the powerful influence which his poems had had on his musical development.  They had "obliged" him to seek "a new tone," a tone which he had found, he went on, in the musical reflection of the feelings that Dehmel's lines had stirred up within him.

It was from this collection that Schoenberg took the poem that forms the starting-point for Verklärte Nacht.  Its subject-matter, entirely characteristic of the poet, is sustained by the emotionalism of a new morality and by the idea of a love that transcends all conventions, and it inspired Schoenberg to produce his boldest harmonic writing to date with dense polyphonic textures and sounds that had never been heard before.  However much he followed the course of the poem's development in this highly dramatic work and however much he allowed himself to be carried away by the compositional process, his already highly developed sense of architectural structure prevented the form from falling apart.  Like the poem, the sextet is divided into five sections, of which the second (the woman's impassioned lament) and the fourth (the man's reply, with its deep sense of understanding) are invested with especial weight.

Schoenberg regarded the work as programme music which "depicts and expresses" Dehmel's poem, but he emphasized none the less that what he was concerned to depict was not so much action as "nature" and the "expression of human feelings."  It was very much in this spirit that Egon Wellesz described the ending of Verklärte Nacht in his 1921 monograph on the composer:  "An infinitely delicate picture is conjured up [...].  Now Nature is speaking;  with the purest, subtlest touch the music now paints the picture of the thicket standing alone in the clear light.  In a shimmering melody the happiness that the two people have found is reflected;  then it dies away, and in the highest harmonics this tone-picture comes to an end."

The String Trio no longer breathes this same atmosphere.  The music starts up, violently, with expressive, often aggressive gestures, exploiting and exhausting every dynamic extreme and extending the already wide range of tone colours available to the three string players by dint of rapid shifts between glassy harmonics, pizzicato passages, col legno bowing (both battuto and tratto) and sul ponticello effects.  Like Verklärte Nacht the String Trio falls into five sections, with three "Parts" divided by two "Episodes."  Although the final part ends with a clear but drastically compressed recapitulation of earlier material, Hans Heinz Stuckenschmidt is quite right to comment that everything here is "worlds away" from "all semblance of any complacent 'Once Upon a Time'."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot