Blind Comparison: Brahms 2

Started by madaboutmahler, December 26, 2013, 08:39:35 AM

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madaboutmahler

Right, final recording has finally arrived in the post after taking quite a while longer than expected... This means that all links will definitely be out by the end of this week. There will be 8 recordings in each of the three groups.

Quote from: MishaK on January 10, 2014, 07:50:23 AM
I'd be up for this if it's not too late to join.
Glad to have you! :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2014, 01:46:07 PM
Nothing yet. Have patience...you'll need it, believe me  ;)  Mad exists, I think, in a different temporal reality.

Sarge

;D 8)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Beale

I would like to join this too if there is room.

mc ukrneal

So I was just going through my Brahms collection, and I was thinking about how often I listen to Sym #2. And I realize that it has been quite some time since I last listened (at least 1-2 years)! I don't know why, because I really like the symphony and listen to the others more often. I realized that I have three versions too: Toscanini, Bohm and Karajan (mid-80's DDD). I find the Toscanini to be the best, and the sound isn't too bad for a Toscanini, but it isn't a modern sounding recording, which I think I would like. The Bohm and the Karajan don't really seem to grab me in the first movement the way the TOscanini does, so it will be interesting to hear some different versions.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

madaboutmahler

All links now sent out! If you have not received one but want to participate, please let me know and I'll send you a link instantly.

Sorry for the delay, some of the recordings turned out to be a bit faulty, but all sorted now! 8 in each group, and if we could have all votes in for this first round by the end of the month, that would be great, thank you!

After listening to the exposition around 50 times at least, I do feel quite uplifted! I hope you get the same effect!
Looking forward to reading your comments. (Please put my favourites through to the next round!  :P )
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2014, 12:16:08 PM
(Please put my favourites through to the next round!  :P )

Alright, alright, we promise to put Kenny G's solo sax version of Brahms 2nd through.

Brahmsian

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2014, 12:16:08 PM
All links now sent out! If you have not received one but want to participate, please let me know and I'll send you a link instantly.

Sorry for the delay, some of the recordings turned out to be a bit faulty, but all sorted now! 8 in each group, and if we could have all votes in for this first round by the end of the month, that would be great, thank you!

After listening to the exposition around 50 times at least, I do feel quite uplifted! I hope you get the same effect!
Looking forward to reading your comments. (Please put my favourites through to the next round!  :P )

Thanks for the link, Daniel.  Look forward to my inaugural participation in the famous GMG blind listens!  :)

Brian

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 14, 2014, 12:19:40 PM
Alright, alright, we promise to put Kenny G's solo sax version of Brahms 2nd through.
Not me, I prefer Dolly Parton ballad version with original lyrics.

Serious note: listening to my group now, and I wish I could un-recognize the recording(s) I recognize.  :(

Madiel

#47
Er, I've got a link to a single video file??

Not what I was expecting.

EDIT: Nope. Sorry, as far as I'm concerned this is completely unusable and I can't understand why would you choose this format. The other blind listening threads I have participated in have involved separate audio files.

First, video makes it more difficult to take this off my computer and listen to it on good quality sound equipment. My computer speakers are totally inadequate.

Second, and more seriously, having a single file with the recordings in a set order creates inherent bias.  It's a fairly fundamental principle of music (and indeed, of neuroscience) that our response to what we hear is affected by what we've heard before. Switching the order of movements matters. Switching the order of songs on a pop album matters.

I shuffle the order of these blind listens so as to not always have performance 3 follow performance 2. If performance 3 is slower or softer than performance 2, always listening in the same order means I will perceive performance 3 as slow and soft, even if in fact it's the second-fastest and second-loudest performance in existence.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

AnthonyAthletic

#48
WMV is video right, internet talks about how you can rip them to dvd =/- r etc?  Something I've never used to date. 

I don't have computer speakers, I did have cheap tinny ones a while ago but never replaced them as I don't listen to audio music via the computer.

I'd have to convert the file to a format, split out each movement then burn to cd audio and let blast on the hifi, this would/might take a long time, if I could get round to it. 

Then again...I have headphones

"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying"      (Arthur C. Clarke)

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: orfeo on January 15, 2014, 12:09:18 AM...having a single file with the recordings in a set order creates inherent bias.  It's a fairly fundamental principle of music (and indeed, of neuroscience) that our response to what we hear is affected by what we've heard before.

Isn't that the point of a comparison? Judging something by what we've heard before and after?  ;)

I don't see how single files would prevent that bias anyway. You still have to choose a file to listen to first. Most files are going to come after you've heard another. But if it really bothers you, do what I do: before listening mark on your note sheet where each performance starts in the wmw file (easy to do). Then choose your own order if you wish; jump around at random. In my group I started with B8 then went back to B4 and B5.

Quote from: orfeo on January 15, 2014, 12:09:18 AM
First, video makes it more difficult to take this off my computer and listen to it on good quality sound equipment. My computer speakers are totally inadequate.

Do you have headphones (Tony's solution)?

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Madiel

#50
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 02:20:21 AM
I don't see how single files would prevent that bias anyway. You still have to choose a file to listen to first.

That's what the Shuffle button is for. If you don't have a Shuffle button, that's what www.random.org is for.

QuoteDo you have headphones (Tony's solution)?

I'm not going to sit in front of my computer attached to it by headphones. To use my good ones, I'd be kneeling on the floor. Even to use the crappy ones I'd be forced to sit in one place in a way that simply isn't compatible with any of my music-listening habits.

EDIT: Even if the problem's solvable, I'm not going to spend time solving it because it shouldn't have been created in the first place. That might sound harsh, but taking separate audio files and turning them into a single video (in a Windows proprietary format too, which means I can't get my iPhone or even my television/set-top box to play it without re-converting and probably degrading the sound) seems like a very peculiar thing to do.  The 'video' consists of a letter and a number. Labelling audio files with a letter and a number would have been far less work!
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: orfeo on January 15, 2014, 03:13:35 AM
EDIT: Even if the problem's solvable,

That, my friend, is up to you.  ;D

But seriously, the format may not be perfect, but I wouldn't expect it to be considering many factors (free forum, free comparison participation, real-life duties, etc...). We've used this format before and it works. Daniel does a fine job, and I (we should) appreciate him taking the time.

On to the Brahms!

Madiel

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2014, 03:38:43 AM
But seriously, the format may not be perfect, but I wouldn't expect it to be considering many factors (free forum, free comparison participation, real-life duties, etc...). We've used this format before and it works. Daniel does a fine job, and I (we should) appreciate him taking the time.

But seriously, I've participated in two other blind comparisons in exactly the same circumstances (this forum) and been given perfectly sensible mp3 files to use. I'm not coming in here and asking for something unreasonable, I'm coming in here and asking for something I know is readily achievable because it's what's happened!

And for something that would clearly have taken LESS time to do than what's actually been done, because to put the audio onto the video required the audio that I'm asking for.

It's a bit like saying I should really appreciate the guy who worked on my car if they added an impressive laser light show but had to put in a smaller engine to do it.

Anyway, I've said all that I needed to and more besides. If this is the file I'm getting, I won't be participating. Simple as that. Have fun.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

mc ukrneal

Orfeo - you might get a better response if you ask if there was a way to create another file/group of files in another format in a polite and respectful way. I don't know how Daniel put these together, but it might not be difficult for him to post your group differently (if you ask nicely). An apology to Daniel might go a long way as well.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Brian

#54
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 02:20:21 AM
Isn't that the point of a comparison? Judging something by what we've heard before and after?  ;)

Aw, you know what he means. One of the A files I heard yesterday (I think A6) is recorded at a higher level than the others, and after about sixty seconds I realized that that was mostly why I liked it better than A5. You do have to adjust your opinions for context like that...

I imagine, also, that if you had a proper "shuffle mode" (I have never tried this) you could in theory not know which clip you're listening to at all, thus getting rid of the "this one was good in the previous round" bias, and only look at the screen when the clip is ending.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Brian on January 15, 2014, 04:38:36 AM
Aw, you know what he means. One of the A files I heard yesterday (I think A6) is recorded at a higher level than the others, and after about sixty seconds I realized that that was mostly why I liked it better than A5. You do have to adjust your opinions for context like that...


Yes, I know what he means. But what I don't understand is why Ofeo thinks separate files would be any better. There would be sonic disparities between them too which you'd have to mentally adjust for...or simply use the player's volume control. It's just as easy to adjust the volume (to even the playing field) between sections within one file as it is to adjust several separate files. I've been doing that all afternoon with the B group. Shuffle mode would certainly not solve this problem.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

aquablob

Quote from: orfeo on January 15, 2014, 04:05:32 AM
It's a bit like saying I should really appreciate the guy who worked on my car if they added an impressive laser light show but had to put in a smaller engine to do it.

Except that you pay a mechanic for an important service, whereas this is just a bit of fun that someone has volunteered time to facilitate, ya Scrooge.

madaboutmahler

Thank you for your support, all! Hope you enjoy it and I look forward to hearing your responses. :) Sorry to hear you recognise some of your recordings, Brian, I can give you another group if you want?

Orfeo, well I'm sorry it doesn't meet your standards, but I'm grateful to those who have stood up for the fact that this is a volunteer job from someone who doesn't exactly have much free time. This takes a long time to organise, but I always enjoy it - and the single video format is what I have used in all of my previous comparisons without such drastic complaint. I can give you the timed listings for the group if you want so you can still move about instead of listen to the recordings chronologically, but if you still don't want to participate, that's fine.
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Pat B

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 15, 2014, 10:31:52 AM
Thank you for your support, all! Hope you enjoy it and I look forward to hearing your responses. :) Sorry to hear you recognise some of your recordings, Brian, I can give you another group if you want?

Orfeo, well I'm sorry it doesn't meet your standards, but I'm grateful to those who have stood up for the fact that this is a volunteer job from someone who doesn't exactly have much free time. This takes a long time to organise, but I always enjoy it - and the single video format is what I have used in all of my previous comparisons without such drastic complaint. I can give you the timed listings for the group if you want so you can still move about instead of listen to the recordings chronologically, but if you still don't want to participate, that's fine.

I'd appreciate those timings, if you don't mind. I'm in Group B.

Regardless, you have my appreciation for running this thing.

Madiel

#59
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 15, 2014, 10:31:52 AM
Orfeo, well I'm sorry it doesn't meet your standards, but I'm grateful to those who have stood up for the fact that this is a volunteer job from someone who doesn't exactly have much free time. This takes a long time to organise, but I always enjoy it - and the single video format is what I have used in all of my previous comparisons without such drastic complaint. I can give you the timed listings for the group if you want so you can still move about instead of listen to the recordings chronologically, but if you still don't want to participate, that's fine.

I know it takes a long time to organise. But part of what I'm saying is that it would actually take you less time to organise if, after editing the audio down to get the extract you want (the exposition in this case), you stopped at that point. In fact the very reason I keep responding to comments about how hard you work on this is to deny the implication that I'm asking you to do more work.

The timed listings would save me a small bit of fiddling about but, as Sarge has said, working that out for myself wouldn't be difficult. The fundamental problem is that the only way I could participate is by sitting at my computer to listen, and that's just not going to work satisfactorily for me. I note it's also not going to work for at least one other person. Evidently, other people around here regularly use their computers to listen to music. That's fine.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!