Blind Comparison: Brahms 2

[North Star]

I know it takes a long time to organise. But part of what I'm saying is that it would actually take you less time to organise if, after editing the audio down to get the extract you want (the exposition in this case), you stopped at that point.

The timed listings would save me a small bit of fiddling about but, as Sarge has said, working that out for myself wouldn't be difficult. The fundamental problem is that the only way I could participate is by sitting at my computer to listen, and that's just not going to work satisfactorily for me. I note it's also not going to work for at least one other person.

Evidently, other people around here regularly use their computers to listen to music. That's fine. I almost never do. I use it for storing music, but it's not the device I listen on unless it's a bit of background where I don't really care about the details of the sound. And obviously for a comparison I care about being able to hear the details.

Or you could download Goldwave for free and divide the video into tracks and save in another audio format.

[Madiel]

Or you could download Goldwave for free and divide the video into tracks and save in another audio format.

I have a video editor. The main reason for not doing that is that another conversion step will probably degrade the sound quality. Plus it will take a while, but the main reason is that every step further away from the original CDs affects the sound and makes the comparison less meaningful for the original CDs.

[Brahmsian]

Daniel, thank you for the link, and organizing this again!     Just went through my first run through Group B.  Will be doing as many run throughs as I can before doing any kind of rating.

[amw]

I looked through some of the previous blind comparison topics to see what they were about... looks like a fun game. I know Brahms's 2nd intimately, but have only ever heard one recorded version of it, so can participate if you want extra people -- or just watch if you don't >.>

[mc ukrneal]

All are welcome. I'm sure Daniel will send you something once he sees the post (he's asleep right now - or should be ).

[TheGSMoeller]

No comments yet? Must be good samples. 
I'll get to mine tomorrow night over some beer and nutella. 

[NorthNYMark]

Maybe I'll get the ball rolling with my initial impressions, since my schedule is probably only going to get more hectic over the next couple of weeks.  As I'm not very familiar with this symphony, have little technical knowledge about music, and am listening through (good) headphones through a crappy computer, these are going to be somewhat simplistic impressions that may evolve with further listenings:

A1:  This is really, really nice, in spite of what sounds like monaural sonics.  While I generally prefer the "darker" interpretations of this work, this is probably my favorite of the more "optimistic" sounding versions.  Overall, it has a very lush, enveloping approach that keeps me emotionally involved.  It is warm, genial, and engaging, and is probably my second favorite among the samples.

A2: This is a very different approach--starker, almost reverentially stoic.  It sounds like it is in stereo, but I would guess it to be an older recording, if only because the approach seems "granitic" in a way that I don't usually associate with more contemporary performances.  I love it--the horn opening here is appropriately haunting, and the dark, somewhat tensely tragic feel throughout works even better for me than the lush lyricism of A1.  This is easily my favorite of the bunch.

A3: This is neither lushly romantic like A1, nor stoically tragic like A2--rather, it feels soft, light, and somewhat pastoral.  During the fast sections, I would characterize it as "sprightly" rather than heroic or dramatic.  While I have no complaints about the playing, I find this one significantly less engaging than either A1 or A2.  Its most impressive quality is a wonderfully textured string sound.  In spite of that, my initial tendency is to put it second from the bottom.

A4:  This one is very interesting.  I think it is the loudest of all the samples, forcing me to reduce the volume--this alone makes me guess that it may be among the more recent performances.  It seems to go for more contrasts in mood than any of the other samples: the first quiet section is rather melancholy (which I like), while the first loud section sounds celebratory; the following soft section feels increasingly optimistic, but then the next loud section is contrastingly severe.  This is an engaging performance with great sound even after the volume adjustment, but feels a bit lacking in subtlety; I'm torn between placing it third or fourth on my list, but I think it will go in fourth place for now.

A5: VERY nice.  If A4 lacked a bit in subtlety, that is the main strength of A5. In some ways, I'd describe it as a slower, gentler version of the stoic A2.  It feels a bit less overtly severe, but its climaxes still sound a bit more dark (or even slightly angry) than joyful.  While not the most immediate or exciting of the samples, it has a good sense of tension and release, and left me wanting to continue listening. I put it at number 3, Just behind A2 and A1, respectively.

A6: Like A5, this is among the more soft and gentle interpretations; however, it lacks the dark undercurrent of A5, falling more into the light, "pastoral" mode of A3.  It is pleasant in an almost Haydnesque manner, but probably my least favorite of all the samples.

A7: This fits into the more playful, "pastoral" mode of A3 and A6, but is probably the quickest in tempo of that group, giving it a rhythmic, almost dance-like quality that is just interesting enough to put it at the top of the bottom three for me.

A8: This is probably the most unusual of the samples, and is therefore especially difficult to rank.  It is monaural, and sounds like it might be an even older recording than A1 (the mono seems more obvious).  All I can say is that this interpretation is PASSIONATE--the first climax almost sounds like it is about to spin out of control.  This kind of heart-on-sleeve interpretation risks coming across as corny, or at least "overcooked," but it is undoubtedly fun at the same time--just imagine being present for a live performance of this kind.  I rank it right in the middle, in fifth place.

So, my initial ranking (after just two listens to each) is A2, A1, A5, A4, A8, A7, A3, and A6.  I would imagine that those who are bigger fans of Mozart and Haydn might well have my bottom three in their top three--I'll be curious to see if this is the case.  Overall, though, I didn't dislike any of the samples, and had a lot of fun comparing them.  I might be interested in comparing at least one of the other sample sets, now that my curiosity has been piqued.

[Sergeant Rock]

Maybe I'll get the ball rolling with my initial impressions

Excellent notes, Mark. Makes me want to listen to group A too.

Sarge

[Brahmsian]

I am going to back out.  I'm completely out of my element here.

[mc ukrneal]

I am going to back out.  I'm completely out of my element here.

Is there anything we can do to help? Perhaps we can list some items to think about/consider when you are listening? It can seem daunting when you first try it. I'd be happy to post some of the elements I listen for (and I am sure others would as well) if that would help.

[Sergeant Rock]

I am going to back out.  I'm completely out of my element here.

Hey, Nut. Do you mean you can't pick out versions you prefer (and rank them) or do you mean you don't know how to describe the reasons for your preferences? If the latter, don't worry about it! Notes, comments, are optional...nice, but optional. There have been times I simply posted a list sans comment when I either had no time or was too ill to type much.

Sarge 

[TheGSMoeller]

Neal and Sarge make good points.
Comparisons are not about who can create the most in-depth comments, it's strictly what the listener prefers. I normally listen late at night and don't have the energy to write a bunch.

At the same time, I love to read other's thoughts like that of Mark's above.

Please do stick around, Ray. These get to be a lot of fun.

[NorthNYMark]

Excellent notes, Mark. Makes me want to listen to group A too.

Sarge

Thanks for the kind words, Sarge.  It was a really enjoyable set of samples.

[Beale]

Maybe I'll get the ball rolling with my initial impressions, since my schedule is probably only going to get more hectic over the next couple of weeks.  As I'm not very familiar with this symphony, have little technical knowledge about music, and am listening through (good) headphones through a crappy computer, these are going to be somewhat simplistic impressions that may evolve with further listenings:

You have done a great job separating out your preferences and explaining them, and in such short turnaround time too.

[NorthNYMark]

You have done a great job separating out your preferences and explaining them, and in such short turnaround time too.

Thank you!

[Brahmsian]

Neal and Sarge make good points.
Comparisons are not about who can create the most in-depth comments, it's strictly what the listener prefers. I normally listen late at night and don't have the energy to write a bunch.

At the same time, I love to read other's thoughts like that of Mark's above.

Please do stick around, Ray. These get to be a lot of fun.

Ok, ok, ok.    I've got a game plan in place.  I'll be judging about 1/2 dozen or more criteria and factors that I believe are important for this first exposition.  I've got a spreadsheet going (because that's just the financial analyst/accountant) in me.    I plan on giving all 8 recordings at least 5 listens each.

[TheGSMoeller]

B1 – Fairly basic interpretation, but nice dynamic changes with what seems like an older recording. Nothing too ear-catching however.

B2 – Gentle and light with its opening. I like how it picks up steam heading into the fortissimo section but prefer a smoother transition into the second theme introduced by the violas and cellos, but an overall delightful flow. The balance within the ensemble is perfect (nice heavy bass presence).  Love the horns!

B3 – Lets hope they handed out lozenges for this live performance, and oh I hear a cough. The sections feel a bit too separated, lacks movement.

B4 – Hasty, but very beautiful. Waves of legato melodies, syrupy Romantic qualities. I like.

B5 – Who brought the record player? Hastier than the hasty B4, which is truly never a complaint for me with Brahms, but I like to take my time with the 2nd's opening tunes. Nice playing, but stereo recordings will prevail because of detail that is lost here.

B6 – Just woke up from a lovely nap and am now floating on a cloud high...sorry, got carried away from that dreamlike opening.  Dreamy indeed, fluid, followed by some nice sharp articulation from the woodwinds.

B7 – Pastoral opening, properly building dramatically to the viola/cello theme. Then maintains an intensity, a much darker atmosphere than the previous six. Another I like.

B8 – Nice presentation, another somewhat basic interpretation. Engineering is a bit strange, violins sound distant. 

Order: B4, B7, B2, B6, B8, B1, B3, B5

[Sergeant Rock]

This is a first! Monkey Greg and I radically disagreeing. My favorites his least favorites 

Listed in order of preference:

B1 The second slowest of the group and phrased just about perfectly for me. The opening conveys a sense of loss and sadness leading to nostalgia and then bitter remembrance with the forte outburst. The transition into the second subject is magically accomplished. I wish for more detail at certain moments but overall a satisfactory instrumental balance.

B3 The slowest of the group (this must be Celi), more majestic than dramatic with a meltingly beautiful second subject. Despite the coughing I like it   Good woodwind detail; I hear the clarinet more clearly here.

B5 Furtwängler-like, a taffy pull, with the pace determined by the dynamic marking. A good balance between lovingly phrased beauty and intense drama. The poor sound, the distortion doesn't deter me here.

B4 Caffeinated Brahms: fast and furious (it never lets up--which I think is a negative trait in this movement) with impressive if blatant sonics. The opposite of dreamy.  Unlike Greg I don't hear much of the Romantic in it. I'd play this in the morning to wake me up.

B6 Too evenly paced in the beginning  through the second subject (as though afraid to kill the mood) but then it takes off to great effect when the second subject explodes--shockingly here relative to what's come before--and then drives forward with those pulsing rhythmic figures nicely articulated (27:18).

B2 Choppy phrasing in the beginning and a pedestrian transition into the second subject, which is played with little feeling, lacking beauty and warmth, puts this out of the running for me despite the many good things it offers, including great sonics and detail.

B7 This is a strange one...or rather it's strange that I can't rationally explain why I feel this way about it. I think I understand why Greg likes it but to me it's too smooth and sleepy (not dreamy). It actually bores me.

B8 I like the interpretation but the recording is congested in tuttis; the sound really puts me off.


Edit: switched B6 and B4...again. I've been doing it in my head for hours.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

Overall, a tough group in that the differences were not all that big. So while a couple stood out as clear winners, none of them really stood out as clear losers for me. This means that my #3-8 are actually quite close with relatively small differences among them. But my top two were a step ahead of them. And they seemed to have a similar approach (so maybe I just like that approach here).

Here are my comments for Group A:
A1 –  Pretty, but not as soulful as it could be. Strings a bit strident (not so much in sound per se, but in the very metronomic way they play it). Climax, however, is quite full. Phrasing is perhaps too staccato. I'm not sure what the score calls for, but it seems a bit too cut off in moments. The pulse of the music improves as they move along.  It's ok, but not a favorite.  Ranking: 7.

A2 –  Nice start. There is a certain softness/lyricism to the phrasing that is just very nicely done. Strings have a better weight here at times than in A1. I like the balance between flute/woodwinds and the strings more here. But about 4 minutes in, they seem to shift to a bit more staccato approach (compared to earlier), which is not really doing it for me. Ranking: 3.

A3 –  Horns not quite as attractive as in A2, though overall quite rounded. Strings not quite as weighty as in A2. Climax does not seem as brassy as the previous two. Strings have a different quality – for me they are weaker and a bit scrappier. Here the flute is hard to really hear distinctly (though it's audible). Ranking: 8.

A4 – This one seems to ooze from department to department at the beginning. Climax is quite successful and detailed. This one has a certain transparency I enjoy. Strings have a full sound, and meld well with the flute/woodwinds. This one has more propulsion, which is part of why I am enjoying it more. And the way they play the staccato makes a big difference here (across the orchestra). Very nice.  Ranking: 1.

A5 – Pleasant start. Lead in to the climax seems a bit unorganized and the climax is more restrained than the others. Phrasing does not seem quite as detailed. Here the staccato in the second section is much more pronounced, but I don't think I really like it (though it is more distinctive than some of the others).  Ranking: 6

A6 – Another nice start (a hair faster?). Strings seem quieter, but they still achieve good impact. The climax is perhaps a bit more staccato than some others. The second staccato section reminds me of A4, and they appear to be taking the same approach (perhaps more march like?). Balance is good here.  Ranking: 4

A7 – Phrasing is different at the beginning. Seems more stop and go as a result.  Lead in to the climax is phrased differently too (a bit more like A1). More staccato, but also consistency in staccato. Tempo is pushed a couple of times, but instead of forward feeling, it seems a tad rushed.   Ranking: 5

A8 – Slower start – love it. Despite the older sound, this one is really allowing the lyricism to shine through more. This is the first climax to give me goose bumps. Orchestra makes a few muffs, but they are more interesting overall. This has more intensity than many of the others. It brings more contrasts I think.   Ranking: 2

SO
Favorite to least favorite: A4, A8, A2, A6, A7, A5, A1, A3.

[TheGSMoeller]

Sarge, you and I on opposite sides of the spectrum? What happened? Full moon? Hell freeze over?  Perhaps it was my beer last night. 

Nice comments, both you and Neal.