Blind Comparison: Brahms 2

[Sergeant Rock]

  You like those ultra-slow ones 

You noticed 

Sarge

[amw]

If the Allegro non troppo's anywhere under 20 minutes, they're either rushing, or left out the exposition repeat!

edit: Actually I have to take that back, I sampled Celi/Munich on NML and while I'd have to take off points for skipping the repeat it's otherwise damn near perfect. Of course, with the repeat it would have attained the quite respectable time of 22:31 so that doesn't really count as an exception.

[trung224]

You noticed 

Sarge

Also adding Giulini/VPO , you will have the most slowest trio Brahms 2 on records 

[Sergeant Rock]

Also adding Giulini/VPO , you will have the most slowest trio Brahms 2 on records 

Actually I was considering ordering that the other day. I have Giulini with Los Angeles (which I should have included in my list of favorites) but I believe the Vienna performance is even slower (although it appears he didn't take the exposition repeat like he did in LA).

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Actually I was considering ordering that the other day. I have Giulini with Los Angeles (which I should have included in my list of favorites) but I believe the Vienna performance is even slower (although it appears he didn't take the exposition repeat like he did in LA).

Sarge

I love the Giulini/LA Phil disc, haven't heard the Vienna performance. Would be interested in hearing the differences, in both interpretation and orchestral tone.

[madaboutmahler]

When do we find out the results?

Hopefully by tomorrow evening. Thank you  all for your votes!!

[Que]

Since the results are not in yet, I could have a go at group C?

Q

[amw]

I could do A or B (not both) tomorrow or the next day, possibly.

[madaboutmahler]

Sorry for the lateness, all.. it has been an extremely busy and tough weekend..

Results definitely by tomorrow.

If you do have time before tomorrow evening to do those groups, would be absolutely great. Here are the links:

Group A: https://www.mediafire.com/?tqkpw065blx818u
Group B: https://www.mediafire.com/?3333aj82cja1w4b
Group C: https://www.mediafire.com/?8768ewog1byk8n7

[amw]

Group A... wow, this is definitely the wimpani group. Only A2 and to a certain extent A5 pulled off the timps properly, and even they could do with some lessons from C7's percussionist.

Most of these are pretty close:

#8 - A1. Despite being only a few seconds longer than average, this one felt very lethargic and leaden for most of its length, as though the orchestra hadn't quite warmed up yet. There were signs of improvement by the end, with the codetta after the poco ritenente section having a bit more life to it, but for the most part, meh. 4/10

#6 - A3 = A8. Both of these had some good moments, but weren't very convincing. In A3 the main problem was a lack of energy and tension, sort of like A1; it felt rather meandering in spite of some beautiful playing from the orchestra. In A8 everything was simply too loud and rushed and undifferentiated. Some of that could be the ancient sonics, of course. A8 picked up eventually with a decent infusion of energy for the 2nd loud bit, so I imagine it would be more convincing if heard in full, but based on the excerpts here I'm giving them the same score: 5/10 A8 would be slightly ahead, but by much less than a half point.

#5 - A4. On first hearing I considered A4 one of the most enjoyable. It's certainly a "happy" Brahms 2, with a lot of raw energy, but on repeated listenings that caused it to stand up less well, not quite as good at conveying the more reflective, melancholy side of the piece. I didn't like the sound of the orchestra very much either—somehow not Brahmsian enough—and the recording was a bit too loud. 6/10

#4 - A7. Like A5 infra this is a wilful, even revisionist approach, and one that doesn't always work for me. I like the smaller forces (is this a period band?), but the orchestral playing and balance aren't always up to scratch—this one is once again afflicted by wimpani. I'm not sure why the conductor is attempting to set a speed record here and the clipped slurs are very odd. The 1st theme, however, was very nice, and the 2nd theme was pretty much the way I like it apart from tempo. May not always like the interpretation, but I'm convinced there's real musicality in this one, and the choices piqued my curiosity. 7/10

#3 - A2 initially seemed too middle-of-the-road, but along with A6 (infra) that ended up becoming somewhat of a virtue. The moments that stood out the most were the tenuto oboes (really nice sounding instruments, too—they're really growing on me) and finally a break of the wimpani curse. The second theme was a bit too syrupy for my taste, but oh well. Slightly prefer this to A7, though it's less distinctive, simply because the standard of playing is so much better. 7/10

#2 - A6. This is the classic sort of middle-of-the-road interpretation you might recommend to someone who'd never heard the piece before. Possibly the best orchestral playing of the lot, I like the horns and clarinets especially, though the timpani is only mediocre. Everything is good. I like the second theme better than A2's. But there's not much that stands out. 7/10

#1 - A5. An opposite sort of wilful interpretation to A7, this is the slowest of the lot by far—yet I don't think I even noticed until I started A/Bing it with the others, which is a good sign as to how convincing the speed was. It does not feel nearly as lethargic or energy-drained as A1, which is actually faster. This has some odd choices of its own including a strange early rit. when the violins first come in—which, however, somehow seems to accentuate the mystery of those spiraling violins and the soft trombone entrance—and a very slow and melancholy 2nd theme which I didn't really like. The poco ritenente section that follows, however, is magisterial, and the timpani bringing that climax in do so with self-confidence. Not perfect by any means but I am most convinced, of all the samples I've heard so far*, that this conductor has something meaningful to say about Brahms 2, so I will give him/her 8/10.

* except Celi/Munich but that doesn't really count, since I knew who that was while I was listening to it, lol

E: On reflection and with some more a/bing I've given an extra point to A2. Though A2 = A6 = A7, I didn't like A7 as much as the other two, but I'm more interested in hearing the rest of it than I am for the other two, so it balances out.

[mc ukrneal]

What I can't understand is why people here (and in other Brahms threads) refer to his music as melancholoy (a reference I have seen made over the past few months across various threads). His music doesn't seem particularly melancholy to me - definitely not an association I make with Brahms. In particular, this clip is not melancholy to my ears. If one is to associate melancholy with music, it would definitely be the French impressionist more than Brahms (piano music of Debussy and Satie comes to mind). So what gives?

[amw]

There is certainly a "melancholy" (bittersweet might be a more accurate word) streak running through a good deal of Brahms's mature music, esp in the way melodies go unresolved or unanswered and authentic cadences are attenuated or elided (there is rarely a strong cadence in a Brahms movement before the very end). A lot of his music lacks that strain, the third and fourth movements of this particular symphony for example, but I think it's quite strong in the first two. The horn calls that abound in the first movement are a longstanding trope for farewell and nostalgia (Der Lindenbaum, Les Adieux), the climaxes are all punctuated with agitated syncopations and dissonances, and the lyricism of the second theme is definitely tinged with sadness. Later in the movement the stormy development section and endless Lebewohls of the coda make it somewhat more explicit. Of course the movement also has its share of sunny, untroubled cantilena, scherzando writing and liveliness—it's emotionally rather ambiguous as most of Brahms's music is—but I think there's a good deal of room for a reading that emphasizes the melancholia. If they're still trying to read that kind of thing into the 4th movement they're off base though.

[Sergeant Rock]

The results so far (I'll edit this if more votes come in):


Round 1 Group A

NorthNYMark  mc urkrneal  Brian  Pim  Sgt Rock  Que  amw
       A2                A4           A7    A4      A5        A5    A5
       A1                A8           A4    A5      A2        A2    A6
       A5                A2           A2              A6        A4    A2
       A4                A6           A1              A7        A8    A7
       A8                A7           A5              A1        A6    A4
       A7                A5           A6              A4        A7    A8
       A3                A1           A3              A8        A1    A3
       A6                A3           A8    A1      A3        A3    A1 


Round 1 Group B

GSMoeller  Sgt Rock  Chambernut  Brian  Que  Pat B
    B4              B1             B4          B1    B7     B7
    B7              B3             B6          B3    B1     B2
    B2              B5             B8          B4    B6     B1
    B6              B4             B2          B7    B5     B6
    B8              B6             B3          B8    B3     B8
    B1              B2             B7          B2    B8     B4
    B3              B7             B5          B5    B4     B3
    B5              B8             B1          B6    B2     B5


Round 1 Group C

AMW  Londonrich  TimH  Beale  GSMoeller  liuzerus87  NorthNYMark  Brian
  C7          C2         C3     C3        C4            C8              C4             C2
  C8          C7         C8     C6        C7            C1              C5             C7
  C2          C1         C1     C1        C3            C3              C1             C8
  C5          C4         C4     C8        C6            C5              C7             C6
  C1          C8         C6     C4        C1            C6              C3             C3
  C6          C6         C2     C2        C8            C4              C8             C5
  C3          C3         C7     C5        C5            C2              C2             C1
  C4          C5         C5     C7        C2            C7              C6             C4

[Brian]

I will try to cover group C at work in a couple hours. Also, looking at everyone else's descriptions, I feel like if I re-listened to group A I might change all my votes  so I won't do that 

[mc ukrneal]

I will try to cover group C at work in a couple hours. Also, looking at everyone else's descriptions, I feel like if I re-listened to group A I might change all my votes  so I won't do that 

I relistened to A5 since so many listeners had positive results, but I think I like it even less than I did the first time!! So I won't relisten to anything else either!

[Sergeant Rock]

His music doesn't seem particularly melancholy to me - definitely not an association I make with Brahms.

This doesn't surprise me    If the comparisons have taught me anything it's that you and I hear music is very different ways. Melancholic, bittersweet, autumnal, nostalgic, even tragic are adjectives I've always associated with Brahms. Like amw I think those characteristics are inherent in the music (and in Brahms' personality). But certainly the interpreter can emphasize those aspects...or bury them. This comparison is making that clear.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

There is certainly a "melancholy" (bittersweet might be a more accurate word) streak running through a good deal of Brahms's mature music, esp in the way melodies go unresolved or unanswered and authentic cadences are attenuated or elided (there is rarely a strong cadence in a Brahms movement before the very end). A lot of his music lacks that strain, the third and fourth movements of this particular symphony for example, but I think it's quite strong in the first two. The horn calls that abound in the first movement are a longstanding trope for farewell and nostalgia (Der Lindenbaum, Les Adieux), the climaxes are all punctuated with agitated syncopations and dissonances, and the lyricism of the second theme is definitely tinged with sadness. Later in the movement the stormy development section and endless Lebewohls of the coda make it somewhat more explicit. Of course the movement also has its share of sunny, untroubled cantilena, scherzando writing and liveliness—it's emotionally rather ambiguous as most of Brahms's music is—but I think there's a good deal of room for a reading that emphasizes the melancholia. If they're still trying to read that kind of thing into the 4th movement they're off base though.

This doesn't surprise me    If the comparisons have taught me anything it's that you and I hear music is very different ways. Melancholic, bittersweet, autumnal, nostalgic, even tragic are adjectives I've always associated with Brahms. Like amw I think those characteristics are inherent in the music (and in Brahms' personality). But certainly the interpreter can emphasize those aspects...or bury them. This comparison is making that clear.

Sarge

Interesting posts. Brahms is also not bittersweet, nostalgic or autumnal for me (at least in the broad sweep of it all). The issue I am sort of trying to integrate is how I think of emotions and music. I don't really think that most composers set out to evoke a particular emotion from us. But rather, we as listeners apply an emotion to the music as we feel it (though perhaps both are true). If I were to try to characterize his music, I would use words like wistful, happy, inevitable, or struggling to name a few. In fact, I like the word struggle most of all.  My first thought to "way melodies go unresolved or unanswered and authentic cadences are attenuated or elided " is that this doesn't lead to melancholy (or those other words), but perhaps I will think on it for a bit first to consider actual examples.

This would certainly explain some of the differences we hear or the way we interpret the different versions too.

[Brian]

C1: Like amw, I think something is "off" about the sound of this orchestra. Maybe it's the combo of audio quality / headphone quality / being at the office, but the ensemble has a "bright" sound, the violins somewhat off-putting to me. The sections did not feel like a cohesive whole, and the lullaby tune did not impress. 5/10;

C2: This is one of the most successful of the "light" interpretations. It has a certain delicacy and ease, and feels the most natural thing in the world. Much too soon to tell if this could be a favorite performance of mine, since it's a style I don't gravitate towards, but I am intrigued and satisfied. Also, timpani. 8/10;

C3: The first few bars were pretty speed-demon-ish. Then it kept getting slower and slower until the intro ended. Nice horns. Just okay. 6.5/10;

C4: This is Norrington, isn't it? The violins are hideous. I'm sorry, Monkey Greg, but 3/10;

C5: After C4, the measured pace and warm welcoming horns are a relief. The slow move into the main theme is kind of fascinating to me. I wish they had maintained the slow pace instead of speeding up for the climax, because they immediately return to something expansive and beautiful for the cello lullaby. Good detail - I could hear some stuff on this I couldn't hear in others. Is there a tuba?! Just need this conductor to grow the balls to keep the tempo slow even when the music is loud. I'm frustrated by this recording. I guess I wanted it to be Celibidache but it wasn't. 6/10;

C6: I found something to like in the burnished sound of this orchestra and the flexible but sensible conducting. Of course, the performance also sounds very familiar, so maybe it's one I have heard many times before. I agree with LondonRich: it's like a big comfy sofa. 7.5/10;

C7: Before the big climax, it feels like the timpanist is waking up one of the dreamiest, most easy-goingest of interpretations, shouting "hey! I wanna play too!" What amazing string playing (versus C4). Still, not one of my favorites. I guess this is like C2 in many ways. I'll let them tie. 8/10;

C8: The poor sound quality is masking a great interpretation, I think. 7.7/10;

Rankings
C2
C7
C8
C6
C3
C5
C1
C4

[Baroque Obama]

I don't know how you guys calculate the results but simple rankings according to posts #172+#177 ignoring the incomplete Pim should be:


1-A2      1-B1 B7   1-C8
2-A5      2-           2-C1
3-A4      3-B4       3-C3
4-A7      4-B6       4-C7
5-A6      5-B3       5-C4
6-A8      6-B2       6-C2
7-A1      7-B8       7-C6
8-A3      8-B5       8-C5

These results, statistically, make Brian in group A, GSMoeller and Que in group B and TimH in group C common sense


and total on average:

1-A2
2-A5
3-A4 B1 B7
6-C8
7-B4
8-C1
9-C3
10-C7
11-A7 B6
13-C4
14-A6 B3
16-B2
17-C2
18-C6
19-A8 B8
21-A1
22-C5
23-B5
24-A3

[Que]

I'm so surprised that I actually picked the top two of both A and B groups!

Must have "average" taste....

Q