Blind comparison : Mahler 2nd symphony [2nd round until March 16]

[Cosi bel do]

What is asking you what ?

ChamberNut, could you unblock my personal messages (I guess this is unintentional ?) ? I might have a solution for you.

[Jay F]

My vote is for G4.

G1.flac: Feels slow; love when violin comes in. I've never paid such close attention before. I have a feeling this is one I've liked in the past.

G2.flac: I immediately get a sad feeling as the singer starts; so far, I prefer this to G1.

G3.flac: Hard to get started, then low volume. I like it but not as much as G2. I like any version of Mahler's Second Symphony, of course, so I'm biased. I think it's the actual voice I like least. The orchestral part may be my favorite, but G2.flac still has my vote.

G4.flac: My favorite. The instrumental portion is delightful, and so is the singing.

[Jay F]

What is asking you what ?

ChamberNut, could you unblock my personal messages (I guess this is unintentional ?) ? I might have a solution for you.

His solution works, ChamberNut. I was being presented the same weird software, which I did not want to download. But Cosi sent me flac files with no issues. Try it.

Jay (another chamber nut)

[aukhawk]

The download site did give me pause, at first, but it seems to be harmless, I didn't have to create an account or download anything I didn't want to.

Votes for IV Urlicht Group G

G3 > G4 > G1 > > G2

Not much to choose between 1,3 and 4.  Nothing much to make me want to hear more, but nothing objectionable either.

G1 the orchestra is a bit recessed, and seems to have caught the vibrato bug, with the brass chorale sounding a bit warbly.  There's a tendency to linger of the end of each phrase, all a bit too droopy for me.

G3 is a nice light voice, and relatively straight performance all round.  Straight nearly always gets my vote.

G4 sounds live, with one or two small distractions at delicate moments.  It's much more 'performed' than 3, but nicely enough done, of its type.

G2 I left till last because it's quite different.  The singer is quite operatic, and even chooses ff at moments that most other singers choose pp.  Surely not right.
This version is also interesting and unique (in the 11 versions I've heard) in the way it handles the gear-change in the middle ("Ach nein!").  Most performances make this point a musical change of mood, the start of part 2.  This version takes this one line much slower, effectively smoothing the gear change and unifying the song.  That makes sense to me, I like what they do here, but - the singing is not my taste at all.  4th of 4.

[Cosi bel do]

My vote is for G4.

G1.flac: Feels slow; love when violin comes in. I've never paid such close attention before. I have a feeling this is one I've liked in the past.

G2.flac: I immediately get a sad feeling as the singer starts; so far, I prefer this to G1.

G3.flac: Hard to get started, then low volume. I like it but not as much as G2. I like any version of Mahler's Second Symphony, of course, so I'm biased. I think it's the actual voice I like least. The orchestral part may be my favorite, but G2.flac still has my vote.

G4.flac: My favorite. The instrumental portion is delightful, and so is the singing.

I will therefore put the following ranking, if it's ok with you :

G4 > G2 > G3 > G1

[Cosi bel do]

Thanks for your votes, Jay F, aukhawk !

[Madiel]

Yes, there is absolutely no need to click on any of the banners asking you to download something besides the file. It's common enough for file-sharing sites to try to offer you such things, and to offer them in bigger and brighter fonts than the actual thing you came to download, but you can in fact simply download the file with the music in it.

[Jay F]

I will therefore put the following ranking, if it's ok with you :

G4 > G2 > G3 > G1

Yes. That's correct. I missed the part about putting them in order of preference. Sorry.

[nachtalberich]

C1:  Older sound, but still good.   Slow, heavy tempo, very romantic.  Heavy voice, very matronly..a little hard-edged and heavy on the vibrato. 

C2:  Good sound, some background noise (live?).  Tempos more to my liking.  I'm not sure this is as much a dirge as others make it.  Anyway, I like this pace.  This one also has a lighter singing voice, much better and more rounded tone.  I feel this is more Vienna and less Germany...whatever that means.  :-)

C3:  Like C1 slower tempo and more dirge like.  Very recessed sound...singing especially.  Sound is very compressed on this one...even the orchestra is quite recessed.   Singing less weighty than C1, but weightier than C2...still rather matronly, and not necessarily in my wheelhouse.

C4:  These are OLD sonics.  I'm thinking 78-era and live to boot.  Lots of coughing.  Probably my second favorite singer of the lot, after C2.  If this had improved sound (or if it wasn't recorded at a stomping and coughing convention) , it probably steals the show. 

C2->C4->C3->C1

[Cosi bel do]

All votes have been transmitted in group B. I will therefore reveal results and the identity of the eliminated version today, in a couple hours.

Votes on other groups will go on until Sunday (or before, if there are no more votes to wait for).

[Pim]

So, will there be bonus points for group B candidates, now that we so diligently voted?

[Cosi bel do]

No but you have the right to listen to as many groups as you wish

[Cosi bel do]

1st Round Results

Group B

9 on 9 votes already given, and nothing could change in this group with a few more, so, here are the results, a little in advance on the end of this round.

Final Ranking

In this group, version B1 was behind from the start and never had any chance to come back in the game. The 3 others are almost always preferred. Here are all votes in a single table (the bottom part, with the average ranking, is not decisive, except if there is a conflict between preferences), and the final ranking :

1. B2 --> seeded for next round
2. B4 --> qualified
3. B3 --> qualified
----
4. B1 --> eliminated

B3 is also quite far behind B2 and B4, this weakness might indicate it will be difficult for B3 not to be eliminated in the next round. (About that, I will compare all groups in the end, and the differences between 1st and 3rd and 4th versions : in case there is a big difference of average ranking in some groups between 1st and 3rd, and a small difference in others between 1st and 4th, I might qualify one or two versions ranked 4th and eliminate 3rds. I hope it is clear. Well, we'll see that later if needed.)

Version B1
William Steinberg, Kölner RSO (live), 10 sept. 1965
Anny Delorie (mezzo-soprano) / ICA Classics (2011)

This was one of the first releases by ICA Classics in 2011, with the help of the WDR archives. This CD was really highly praised by critics around the classical world.

You eliminated it though. Not for its sonics, despite it being a little ancient live recording, it is recorded in a very comfortable stereo, very detailed. But the Urlicht is not its main strength, with Anny Delorie too heavy on the vibrato, and a weird throaty voice. Still, the tempo is good, respectful of Mahler's indications.

If this version is really great (I highly recommend it to all lovers of this symphony), it is mainly for its 1st movement, an epic voyage, with a Cologne orchestra electrified by Steinberg, and impressive with precision. The finale is also a great moment of fervour.
Steinberg knew how to make an ensemble he was conducting for a night sound at its best. But you judged his Urlicht below expectations. And as I said, without a great Urlicht, there is no great version. But don't miss it, listen to it one of this days, you might be really captivated.

[kishnevi]

Okay, I'm ready to give an opinion regarding Group D

First place: D3
Third: D1/D2 (tie)
Fourth: D4

In D3, the pacing and the vocal palette were fairly close to my mental idea of what is perfect for this movement.
In D4,  pacing was too quick and singer's vocal tone too earth mother-ish
In D1, nothing was wrong,  but nothing seemed particularly above the rest.
In D2, same situation as in D1

The only one of the four for whose sake I would indulge myself in a temper tantrum if it is eliminated, would be D3--and counterintuitively, it would be D4 I would prefer to advance in preference to D1 and D2,  because it was distinctive, even if in a way I don't like,  whereas D1 and D2 didn't seem to be distinctive in any way--which is why I describe them as "tied for third" instead of "tied for second".

Am I correct in thinking only D1 was live out of these four?  It was, at least, the only one in which I heard stage and audience noises.

[Cosi bel do]

No, you are not correct on this, but more on that later

Apart from that, a few performances that are described by participants as rushed might be in fact quite close to what Mahler intended and asked for when he specifically wrote Nicht schleppen (don't drag) on the orchestral accompaniment...

[kishnevi]

No, you are not correct on this, but more on that later

Apart from that, a few performances that are described by participants as rushed might be in fact quite close to what Mahler intended and asked for when he specifically wrote Nicht schleppen (don't drag) on the orchestral accompaniment...

Ah, but we know better than Mahler what sounds good....

And "dragging" is (to me) as much a matter of meter as of actual speed:  a moderate pace with almost no accented beats drags more in my ears than a slow pace with strongly accented beats

[mc ukrneal]

Here are my comments for Group H:

H1 – Nice balance here. Horns have a lovely sound. The tension is quite good with the appropriate solemnness. Quite attractive voice. Just beautifully done.   Ranking: 1

H2 – This singer has a bit more vibrato, which I don't love. Another lovely brass passage though. Yeah, the slightly heavier voice and vibrato isn't ideal. Orchestra plays just beautifully though, making me want to hear the rest. I don't mind the slower tempo.   Ranking: 2

H3 – Really rolls her r's. Brass are not as beautiful, but play ok. Another live one. I like the voice, but doesn't quite have the same level of solemnness and tension as in #1. I am reminded a bit more here of a Strauss opera – more intensity and drama. Is this what you want here? Hmmm.    Ranking: 4

H4 – Much faster tempo. This really creates a different atmosphere – again more dramatic. In this sense, it is more similar to H3. Oi, the vibrato is quite fast and a bit less attractive, though the singing itself is ok.     Ranking: 3

SO

For me, H1 is the clear winner. The most beautiful sound and I think the closest to the style that Mahler calls for here. H4 is interesting, and perhaps for that, I could place it second. The singing among the remaining three is generally pretty good, though I preferred the atmosphere in H2, which is ultimately why I will place it second instead. I think H4 is just a bit too pushed for my tastes. But I would understand if someone preferred this approach –it has its plusses. H3 was the laggard for me by quite a lot, but not at all bad.

Favorite to least favorite: H1, H2, H4, H3.

[Cosi bel do]

Ah, but we know better than Mahler what sounds good....

And "dragging" is (to me) as much a matter of meter as of actual speed:  a moderate pace with almost no accented beats drags more in my ears than a slow pace with strongly accented beats

This is why Urlicht raises more questions than one could initially anticipate.

Mahler says "Sehr feierlich aber schlicht (Choralmässig)", meaning "very solemn, but simple", which is already kind of an oxymoron. "Like a choral", which suggests something religious, or at least spiritual, in the atmosphere. Then he asks Nicht schleppen, which complicates things a little further.

This is a very subtle equilibrium that is asked for between solemnity and simplicity, and between religious inspiration (which corresponds to the meaning of Urlicht in the dramaturgy, Mahler presenting it like the song of an Angel for the hero buried in the first part, Totenfeier) and this permanent lightness which needs not to schleppen the music...

After listening to all these Urlichts, I am less and less satisfied by all of them (and all others too, of course). The ideal Urlicht is really difficult to realize.

[kishnevi]

This is why Urlicht raises more questions than one could initially anticipate.

Mahler says "Sehr feierlich aber schlicht (Choralmässig)", meaning "very solemn, but simple", which is already kind of an oxymoron. "Like a choral", which suggests something religious, or at least spiritual, in the atmosphere. Then he asks Nicht schleppen, which complicates things a little further.

This is a very subtle equilibrium that is asked for between solemnity and simplicity, and between religious inspiration (which corresponds to the meaning of Urlicht in the dramaturgy, Mahler presenting it like the song of an Angel for the hero buried in the first part, Totenfeier) and this permanent lightness which needs not to schleppen the music...

After listening to all these Urlichts, I am less and less satisfied by all of them (and all others too, of course). The ideal Urlicht is really difficult to realize.

Like everything, it has to be just right.  But I beg to differ about solemnity and simplicity being an oxymoron---for me,  something that is truly solemn will tend to be simple (although of course simplicity is not the only element of solemnity!), and religious inspiration is full of lightness. * The balance is therefore actually a matter of artistically faking simplicity and ethereality, but not faking it too much. 

*Which is why I love Baroque churches for their architecture and art, but would never worship in them even if I was  a Christian.

[zauberflöte]

Group D, from top choice to last

1. D1 My favorite by a wide margin. Loved the slow tempo, and I don't always. Also the horns in the beginning, Voice balanced nicely with orchestra, which is rare in a Mahler 2 recording, gives me hope for the fifth movement where the voice should sound as if it's just one of many at first slowly rising over the rest, something I've only heard in a live performance.
 
2. D3 Second and third choice are both lovely though nothing about either stands out. Singer a little more in control in D3 which gives it the edge.

3. D2. A bit prosaic, perhaps, but still lovely in all. Wonderful singer, though a hint of wobble at the end.

4. Pretty sure I know this performance. The Urlich doesn't work for me. Singer too much the stentorian battle ax. Orchestra sound too dry. Not one to linger over.