Ukraine in turmoil

[knight66]

A very interesting article, thanks. My neice is just back from Estonia and she told me the atmosphere there is one of fear and an assumption that once Ukrane is out of the way, it will be their turn next.

Mike

[Turner]

Bump-bump
- but as some here know, I´ve been quite interested in the Ukraine situation, and there are now a few underreported, but very interesting signs that Russia is working for a way out, though it´s too early to say if it will really happen:

recent quotes from the Kremlin and Putin apparently showing an interest in UN peacekeepers in the region, even by the Russia-controlled borders to the separatist statelets, which currently see a steady flow of arms and military.
And now rumours that their leaders are to be replaced by somewhat softer newcomers:
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/kremlin-rumored-ready-replace-leaders-donbas.html?utm_content=buffer2ff1b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The Russian financing of the statelets (including now the major parts of the fragmentary wellfare and state apparatus there, and of course their massive armies), plus the sanctions, has been extremely expensive.

There are however also those doubting the sincerity regarding the UN peacekeepers, seeing it as maybe an excuse to place Russian military there officially:
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russia-s-peacekeeping-proposal-in-ukraine-is-a-sham#.Wbo9nBmmLwl.twitter

Let´s hope that Ukraine can continue its road to better life for all there, after this awful - and still ongoing - war.

[Turner]

Flight MH17 investigation approaching its final conclusions, apparently quite close to what has been presented by say Bellingcat and other sources.

https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/2017/10/16/74192-the-purpose-is-to-bring-this-matter-to-court

[Florestan]

Let´s hope that Ukraine can continue its road to better life for all there

Certainly not for better and not for all. Ukraine's Parliament (Rada) has recently voted, and President Poroshenko  signed, a law that cancels the ethnic minorities' (among which the largest is the Romanian) right to education in their own languages save for primary school only. Hungary and Romania tried in vain, by diplomatic means, to make them come to their senses. Accordingly, the matter will be presented to the Council of Europe for investigation.

Russian nationalism should not blind us to the equally pernicious Ukrainian one.

[Turner]

Certainly not for better and not for all. Ukraine's Parliament (Rada) has recently voted, and President Poroshenko  signed, a law that cancels the ethnic minorities' (among which the largest is the Romanian) right to education in their own languages save for primary school only. Hungary and Romania tried in vain, by diplomatic means, to make them come to their senses. Accordingly, the matter will be presented to the Council of Europe for investigation.

Russian nationalism should not blind us to the equally pernicious Ukrainian one.

I agree that new Ukrainian laws and reforms under Poroshenko have been a very mixed bag, some good, some not. Nationalism, and also some pressure on the media, compensating for the Russian invasion, has been extensive and too much in some cases. There has been a slight recovery as regards the overall economy and a few good corruption initiatives, resulting in more transparency at least (lawmakers must now go public about their wealth and earnings). The picture is still quite chaotic. Add to this a traditional, widespread scepticism among the general public, based on previous experiences, oligarchy, corruption and huge income differences ...

Today the parliament is debating oncoming, important health and electorate reforms, as well as lifting the immunity of deputees, with various opposition people demonstrating and putting up tents outside the building.

[Florestan]

I agree that new Ukrainian laws and reforms under Poroshenko have been a very mixed bag, some good, some not. Nationalism, and also some pressure on the media, compensating for the Russian invasion, has been extensive and too much in some cases. There has been a slight recovery as regards the overall economy and a few good corruption initiatives, resulting in more transparency at least (lawmakers must now go public about their wealth and earnings). The picture is still quite chaotic. Add to this a traditional, widespread scepticism among the general public, based on previous experiences, oligarchy, corruption and huge income differences ...

Today the parliament is debating oncoming, important healh and electorate reforms, as well as lifting the immunity of deputees, with various opposition people demonstrating and putting up tents outside the building.

Yes, but the news frequently portray the evolutions there as a fight between Ukrainians and Russians, thus brushing under the carpet the fact there are other nations too living in Ukraine and their own interests and rights are trampled under foot by both parties.

[Turner]

Bump-bump

... And now rumours that their leaders are to be replaced by somewhat softer newcomers:
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/kremlin-rumored-ready-replace-leaders-donbas.html?utm_content=buffer2ff1b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The Russian financing of the statelets (including now the major parts of the fragmentary wellfare and state apparatus there, and of course their massive armies), plus the sanctions, has been extremely expensive.

Rather surreal events in the Luhansk statelet yesterday, with new "little green men" including identified troops from the Donetsk neighbour statelet, suddenly invading the Luhansk capital, in what appears to be a power struggle between fractions within the statelets. The new troops support the Luhansk interior minister, according to some with assistance from the Russian security services, whereas the old leader Plotnitsky is apparently still supported by the Kremlin advisor Surkov.

[vandermolen]

My daughter is there working for MSF. Based in Kyiv but often going to Mariupol for medical projects including working with TB patients in a prison and with people psychologically traumatised by war. As her father I worry about her a lot but am also very proud of her. Kyiv is such an interesting place - visited it earlier this year.

[Turner]

More reports of Plotnitsky fleeing to Russia with his trusted 'staff' members.

If so, the possible scenarios include a future merge of the two separatist 'republics'.

[Kalevala]

Current news:  I know that I shouldn't be shocked, but I still am, with Pres. Zelensky and his delegation asked to leave the White House.  Watch the news regarding his and Pres. Trump's talks.

K

[AnotherSpin]

I heard about it today, but I have no desire to dig into the details. Politicians have their own lives, and I have mine.

[Karl Henning]

I heard about it today, but I have no desire to dig into the details. Politicians have their own lives, and I have mine.

Good sense.

[Florestan]

Trump and Vance bullying Zelensky to the applause and satisfaction of Putin's minions. Sad and shameful. The US have just lost whatever moral ground they still had. Dark times ahead for the whole world.

[Karl Henning]

Trump and Vance bullying Zelensky to the applause and satisfaction of Putin's minions. Sad and shameful. The US have just lost whatever moral ground they still had. Dark times ahead for the whole world.

The US is presently a vassal state to Russia. And Republican Congressmen are cool with that. 

[Florestan]

The US is presently a vassal state to Russia. And Republican Congressmen are cool with that.

Everybody wants peace, but dictating to Ukraine a peace in Putin's terms is actually preparing a new war. It's Trump who's gambling with WW3, not Zelensky.

Oh, and Trump's mantra that this war should not have started: go tell that to Putin, he started it, not Zelensky.

And this presumptuous monkey, Vance, boggles the mind he has the nerve to lecture Zelensky on what Ukraine should or should not do.

[drogulus]

Everybody wants peace, but dictating to Ukraine a peace in Putin's terms is actually preparing a new war. It's Trump who's gambling with WW3, not Zelensky.

Oh, and Trump's mantra that this war should not have started: go tell that to Putin, he started it, not Zelensky.

And this presumptuous monkey, Vance, boggles the mind he has the nerve to lecture Zelensky on what Ukraine should or should not do.

     Does it matter whether someone is a Russian asset or not if their words and deeds are indistinguishable from the real article?

[André]

Canada will hold elections in a few weeks. I'm pretty sure our next PM will have his/her own Zelensky moment in Washington, capital of Dystopialand.

[drogulus]

    Are we great yet?

[Florestan]

Tbh, though, Zelensky was brave enough but he fell into a trap which might have very well been set up for him consciously. Trump and especially Vance are to be blamed for the whole mess but if Zelensky had been more of a diplomat and kept his composure, the disaster might have still been averted. When things began to heat up he should have said "Mr. President, I came here for serious negotiationd, not for a TV show. Get the press out of here and let's get to business!" He lost his temper instead (and umderstandably so) but he should have known better than that.

What is preposterous, though, is the claim that Trump is a skilled negotiator. That's bull on stilts. "My way or the highway!" and adding insult to injury is hardly skilled preparation for a negotiation.

The bitter irony is that Trump is not entirely wrong. The war must end and peace must be established. Ukraine will have to agree to territorial losses in this respect. But his way to achieve all this is self-defeating. To order her to do so immediately and unconditionally amounts to  full capitulation to Russia. Trump acts in this matter as the tool of Putin. Vladimir could not bring Ukraine to her kneels so he asks his friend Donald to finish the job for him. It's grotesque.

[relm1]

Tbh, though, Zelensky was brave enough but he fell into a trap which might have very well been set up for him consciously. Trump and especially Vance are to be blamed for the whole mess but if Zelensky had been more of a diplomat and kept his composure, the disaster might have still been averted. When things began to heat up he should have said "Mr. President, I came here for serious negotiationd, not for a TV show. Get the press out of here and let's get to business!" He lost his temper instead (and umderstandably so) but he should have known better than that.

What is preposterous, though, is the claim that Trump is a skilled negotiator. That's bull on stilts. "My way or the highway!" and adding insult to injury is hardly skilled preparation for a negotiation.

The bitter irony is that Trump is not entirely wrong. The war must end and peace must be established. Ukraine will have to agree to territorial losses in this respect. But his way to achieve all this is self-defeating. To order her to do so immediately and unconditionally amounts to  full capitulation to Russia. Trump acts in this matter as the tool of Putin. Vladimir could not bring Ukraine to her kneels so he asks his friend Donald to finish the job for him. It's grotesque.

trump is known for being a horrible negotiator.  He didn't even write The Art of the Deal (or read it).  He's just a bully and throws allies under the bus and has nothing but praise for other bullies.