Ukraine in turmoil

[drogulus]

    On the flag of Gaza LLC

[ritter]

If this thread goes off-topic, in the direction some members seem intent to push it, it will be closed. Please keep that in mind. Thanks!

[vandermolen]

Everybody wants peace, but dictating to Ukraine a peace in Putin's terms is actually preparing a new war. It's Trump who's gambling with WW3, not Zelensky.

Oh, and Trump's mantra that this war should not have started: go tell that to Putin, he started it, not Zelensky.

And this presumptuous monkey, Vance, boggles the mind he has the nerve to lecture Zelensky on what Ukraine should or should not do.

Vance lectured our (British) PM on freedom of speech. I thought that Keir Starmer handled it well - not getting angry and pointing out that we have enjoyed freedom of speech for a long time over here.

[DavidW]

Trump and Vance bullying Zelensky to the applause and satisfaction of Putin's minions. Sad and shameful. The US have just lost whatever moral ground they still had. Dark times ahead for the whole world.

They also fell into the mistake of thinking that if you don't have an intelligent point to make, then cover it by SHOUTING LOUDLY. Zelensky then appeared on Fox News, where he did a great job of lowering the temperature and also debunking some of Fox News' disinformation about where all the money has gone.

[Kalevala]

They also fell into the mistake of thinking that if you don't have an intelligent point to make, then cover it by SHOUTING LOUDLY. Zelensky then appeared on Fox News, where he did a great job of lowering the temperature and also debunking some of Fox News' disinformation about where all the money has gone.

Oh, nice!

K

[drogulus]

    No exit

[LKB]

I believe that the moment is fast approaching when the European members of NATO will finally realize that they need to act in concert - and without US participation - not only to defend Ukraine, but to forestall further Russian aggression. They must show resolve, else Putin will assume he has a free hand.

[LKB]

Shocker!

" Trump pauses US military aid to Ukraine, White House confirms "

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c981p3dxnent

[AnotherSpin]

Shocker!

" Trump pauses US military aid to Ukraine, White House confirms "

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c981p3dxnent

Curious to hear opinions of the U.S. military-industrial complex on this brilliant "decision". America generously "helps" Ukraine by offloading outdated weaponry it no longer needs, while the funds earmarked for this so-called "aid" conveniently fuel the production of shiny new arms—for itself, of course.

[drogulus]

Curious to hear opinions of the U.S. military-industrial complex on this brilliant "decision". America generously "helps" Ukraine by offloading outdated weaponry it no longer needs, while the funds earmarked for this so-called "aid" conveniently fuel the production of shiny new arms—for itself, of course.

    It's practical to do that. Both the US and Ukraine get better weapons than they would have otherwise.

    I don't think the agricultural industrial complex is responsible for my desire to eat food and not starve.

     

[DavidW]

Curious to hear opinions of the U.S. military-industrial complex on this brilliant "decision". America generously "helps" Ukraine by offloading outdated weaponry it no longer needs, while the funds earmarked for this so-called "aid" conveniently fuel the production of shiny new arms—for itself, of course.

It is all true, sadly. However, there is a difference between sufficient and necessary. While US aid is in some part performative, it was still more than half of the total Ukrainian military aid. Without that aid, things will look even grimmer.

[drogulus]

     Biden was justly criticized for his drip feed approach to helping Ukraine. That was his decision, and I'll hazard a guess the thinksters in the MI complex were not pleased with it.

[AnotherSpin]

Sounds like a them problem.

That money should have gone to the states to address issues like food deserts, the homeless crisis (which is accelerating at a frightening speed), poverty in the US, in general.

You could twist the old saying and put it this way: "The overly cunning end up paying twice." Today, the world thinks it's being clever by not stopping a deranged maniac — tomorrow, it'll be handing out aid not just to Ukraine, but to a whole lineup of devastated countries, and in much larger amounts.

[AnotherSpin]

Ukraine doesn't need this drip-fed aid. Just give back our nuclear weapons that were deceitfully taken in the '90s and — surprise! — handed over to Russia, all under false promises to guarantee our security and territorial integrity.

[drogulus]

Sounds like a them problem.

That money should have gone to the states to address issues like food deserts, the homeless crisis (which is accelerating at a frightening speed), poverty in the US, in general.

    No, money should go to worthy programs. There is no "that money" taken from one priority to go to another. This falsehood exists for the purpose of not spending for what's needed. You can't have X because of Y, and when the time comes you can't have Y because of X. It's clever, I'll grant that, and it often works.

    if you want to spend to alleviate poverty, do it. Don't use the new aircraft carrier as an excuse to cheap out.

    My advice: Walk. Chew gum.

[Florestan]

Not if Trump maintains his line.

Precisely if Trump maintains his line of painting Zelensky as a warmonger and Putin as a peace-loving fellow, which is a morally disgusting line.

[Florestan]

The problem with guarantees is this: who guarantees them? Before 2014 Ukraine's security and territorial integrity were guaranteed by USA, Russia, UK and France --- and the guarantees were worth less than the paper they were written on. Who and how can guarantee that this time things will be different?

[AnotherSpin]

Well, nothing unexpected so far. One can recall the phrase often attributed to Winston Churchill: "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they've tried everything else."

[Kalevala]

Well, nothing unexpected so far. One can recall the phrase often attributed to Winston Churchill: "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they've tried everything else."

Really?  You want to go there?  I feel for your country, I truly do, but comments like this aren't helping.  Think.

K

[DavidW]

The problem with guarantees is this: who guarantees them? Before 2014 Ukraine's security and territorial integrity were guaranteed by USA, Russia, UK and France --- and the guarantees were worth less than the paper they were written on. Who and how can guarantee that this time things will be different?

Well, that is the problem with the US. We are a two party system with polar opposite beliefs. Every few years, one party rises and the other falls, and all existing policy is thrown out the window for something new. While in the past, politicians didn't believe in rocking the boat on long-existing policy, in today's age, everything is up for change or dismissal. There is a sad trend these days of either party immediately wanting to completely dismantle the work that came before. How can other countries work with and plan around the US in such times?